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Should Poland be given ANY credit for ALLOWING Jews into Poland for 1000 years?


rybnik 18 | 1,462
1 Jul 2012  #121
To defend my people? Absolutely.

if by people you mean family, i would too - no doubt.
genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #123
Niki, 4 of my great grandparent were murdered in the Holocaust, both of my grandfathers fought as soldiers on the front lines, both getting high medals for their service. My dad and uncles served in the combat branches of the military, I was in the US Marine Corps and the US ARNG, and with all of this I still do not fault Polish soldiers who were drafted into the SS. No "normal" parent would tell them to go and die! Talk is cheap!
rybnik 18 | 1,462
1 Jul 2012  #124
Rybnik,I would also.

you know p3, if it was a question between I live or my daughter lives, I'll die. That much I do know. But, to proclaim, that I'd die "for my people", how can anyone say that. It rings flat (to be kind).
p3undone 8 | 1,135
1 Jul 2012  #125
I don't have any children,but I damn well could have died protecting my younger sister once.The thing that I was saying to Nicki,was you can't

know what you'd do when confronted with some of the choices that Poles and Jews had to make during WW2.She's adamant that she would hold fast to her convictions.So I'll agree to disagree with her on that note.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
1 Jul 2012  #126
The thing that I was saying to Nicki,was you can'tknow what you'd do when confronted with some of the choices that Poles and Jews had to make during WW2.She's adamant that she would hold fast to her convictions.So I'll agree to disagree with her on that note.

for sure
PlasticPole 7 | 2,662
1 Jul 2012  #127
But, to proclaim, that I'd die "for my people", how can anyone say that. It rings flat (to be kind).

It's like when people go to war for their country. Some people will sacrifice themselves for the welfare of strangers. It's the same mentality people who enlist in the military have, or first responders. They know what they do is risky but are willing to take that risk to save others.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
1 Jul 2012  #128
maybe......I dunno
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #129
Niki, 4 of my great grandparent were murdered in the Holocaust, both of my grandfathers fought as soldiers on the front lines, both getting high medals for their service. My dad and uncles served in the combat branches of the military, I was in the US Marine Corps and the US ARNG, and with all of this I still do not fault Polish soldiers who were drafted into the SS. No "normal" parent would tell them to go and die! Talk is cheap!

I didn't say that I'd leave them to die alone--I'd go with them. I lost relatives in the Holocaust myself, and one of my great-granduncles was KIA--though 18 years passed as he died of his wounds. Also, Jews are a family--so given that my people are my family, I'd die for them.
Harry
1 Jul 2012  #130
I still do not fault Polish soldiers who were drafted into the SS.

The SS didn't have conscripts soldiers in it.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
1 Jul 2012  #131
They were conscripted into the Wehrmacht,weren't they?
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,543
1 Jul 2012  #132
and with all of this I still do not fault Polish soldiers who were drafted into the SS

As Ive read some of your posts you seem like a nice guy who only did a tiny mistake so ill be gentle :)

1. SS didn't draft they had volunteers if I am not mistaken
2. There were no Poles in the SS (Unless you count a handful of individuals with Polish ancestry in Germany or Polonized Lithuanians which later on were recruited by the Polish army when they were captured at the end of the war tiny bit controversial, just so you know the Polish army didn't have it easy recruting as their homeland was... ye occupied) Unless Harry has been lying to me >:(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht

Here is some information about the shizzle
genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #133
My bad, it was the West Ukrainians that were drafter/volunteered into Waffen SS. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the military arrangement was between the Germans and the Poles. I saw an hour long episode on German occupation of Poland and remember hearing how one german general was upset at the German General who oversaw Poland for what they called "Aryanizing" of poles (don't know how they Aryanized people, or what exactly that meant).
sofijufka 2 | 191
1 Jul 2012  #134
"Aryanizing" was done for example by stealing polish children with fair skin and hair and having them adopted by german families.
genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #135
On this subject. Something I noticed, I might be wrong, but compared to surrounding populations (Ukrainians, Belorussians, Czech, Slovaks) I noticed that Poles tend to have a higher % of people with dark hair. I always wondered if this was possibly a result of the large Jewish population of Poland through out the ages? Mixing is almost a certainty that happened. I even know of many instances of where Jews converted to Catholicism.
grubas 12 | 1,392
1 Jul 2012  #136
"Aryanizing" was done for example by stealing polish children with fair skin and hair and having them adopted by german families.

OMG.Learn some basics before you post such a nonsense.Even Hitler considered Poles to be Aryans.When Germans talked about ghettos they were talking "Jewish side" and "Aryan side".Geez.Polish children were GERMANIZED.On a side note,often people say that Hitler hated Slavs and considered them subhumans.This is another nonsense.Hitler specifically hated Poles (and he had a reason) but had no problem with Czechs,Slovaks,Bulgarians and Ukrainians.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #137
I even know of many instances of where Jews converted to Catholicism.

Case in point, my family during the pogroms.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
1 Jul 2012  #138
When did that take place? What year?
Was it during the Russian, Austrian and German/Prussian occupations? If so then Poland was not in charge of the pogroms. Did they convert in the time frame between the two world wars?
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,543
1 Jul 2012  #139
My bad, it was the West Ukrainians that were drafter/volunteered into Waffen SS

Well technically you could be right as they probably were Polish citizens before the war.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the military arrangement was between the Germans and the Poles.

That's the thing, there was no arrangements. There wasn't any party or organization that considered itself Polish that co-operated with the Germans on a military level. Only incident that one could think of is when the Germans deliberately dropped some weapons and ammo for some local Polish partisans. How wise that was is an other thing but the red army was on the approach. The Germans hoped they would use it towards the reds.

I saw an hour long episode on German occupation of Poland and remember hearing how one german general was upset at the German General who oversaw Poland for what they called "Aryanizing" of poles

I think he maybe meant Germanizing? There were several projects to divide the Poles and make them not co-operate with the Jews. Goralenvolk... Stroop when complaining about Jews hanging ip Polish flags etc during their Ghetto uprising. Other countires most people were passive and a few very much against. While in Poland yes there were many passive people but, those passive people. Had they a chance just like an ticket controller on an tramwaj that noticed a person carrying a weapon and obviously he was part of the resistance he gladly didn't ask for his ticket.

Poles stayed Poles and no matter what Utopia the German high command wanted to create, they failed in every aspect.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #140
When did that take place? What year?
Was it during the Russian, Austrian and German/Prussian occupations? If so then Poland was not in charge of the pogroms. Did they convert in the time frame between the two world wars?

I don't exactly know. The sad part is that my granddad and dad are useless in helping me find out (They refuse to admit that we're Jews.), and my family was living in Lipsk nad Biebrzą at the time. If you can help, their baptismal names were Julian Jan "Feliks" and Aleksjondria Alicja. She was born a Margiewicz (Morgiewicz) Andrulewicz, he a Daniłowicz Chernetski (who changed his name to "Czarniecki" and "Czarnecki").
sofijufka 2 | 191
1 Jul 2012  #141
OMG.Learn some basics before you post such a nonsense

I do know basic facts - son of my great-anut was one of these "janczar" children, and the children of my mother's best friend also. Didn't you notice that I put "aryanizing" in brackets?
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,543
1 Jul 2012  #142
I don't exactly know.

Well it's quite important really, otherwise you won't get a clear picture
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #143
I do know basic facts - son of my great-anut was one of these "janczar" children, and the children of my mother's best friend also. Didn't you notice that I put "aryanizing" in brackets?

Jan Czar? Is that a reference to my family? If it were, it'd be useful.

Nickidewbear: I don't exactly know.

Well it's quite important really, otherwise you won't get a clear picture

My guess is 1902-1904. He immigrated the first time as Julian Laczinsky (under his grandmother's maiden name, no doubt) and Julian Zernetzky the second time.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
1 Jul 2012  #144
The sad part is that my granddad and dad are useless in helping me find out

If even your granddad wasn't involved in converting then almost certainly any conversions occurred during the era of Polish partitions. That's when Poles were not in charge of their own country. The probability is that your family changed religions during the Russian occupation.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #145
I know that they changed it during the pogroms, but only so as to live as Anusim. Pop-Pop is still quite involved in keeping (if I may) the Anusidut or Anusidat (however you say "Crypto Jewishness") alive and well in our family--he wants to ring my neck for finding out that we're Jewish.

Anyway:

- Laczinsky
- Zernetzky
- Naturalization 1
- Naturalization 2
sofijufka 2 | 191
1 Jul 2012  #146
Jan Czar? Is that a reference to my family? If it were, it'd be useful.

no, it's not. Janczar [in engl.:janissary] -The Janissaries were an ottoman army, recruited of non-Turkish children, notably Balkan Christians; Jews were never subject to devşirme, nor were children from Turkic families. In early days, all Christians were enrolled indiscriminately; later, those from Albania, Greece, Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria were preferred.[4][5]. The Janissaries were kapıkulları (sing. kapıkulu), "door servants" or "slaves of the Porte", neither free men nor ordinary slaves (Turkish: köle).[6]

The selected by Germans children often were called "janczars". Read a book by Alojzy Twardecki [Alfred Hartmann}, one of the "janissary boys. - The school of Janissaries:letters to a german friends.

zaprasza.net/a.php?article_id=31122
genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #148
I think he maybe meant Germanizing?

Yes, that could have been it.
Harry
1 Jul 2012  #149
For the last time: the SS never drafted anybody.
And Polish citizens were not eligible to be drafted unless they signed up as Germans on the DVL.
Henry R - | 18
9 Aug 2013  #150
Thread: Should Poland be given ANY credit for ALLOWING Jews into Poland for 1000 years?

Now I see why Poland was relatively spared from Bubonic plague, the Black Death.




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