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Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?


irishdeano Activity: 5 / 304
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10 Jul 2010  #61

We Irish have to accept the loss of Belfast! ;) Maybe some day she will return to the motherland

What the hell u mean the loss of belfast? There is 6 counties

By the way most in Belfast are pretty happy to be British or at least the ones I know :D

some do some dont, quit being 1 sided on something u know not much about

sorry for being off-topic here

MareGaea Activity: 29 / 2,772
Joined: 6 Feb 2008 ♂
 
10 Jul 2010  #62

Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?

No.

>^..^<

M-G (thread closed)
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,546
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
10 Jul 2010  #63

No.

don't mess with me M-G
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b3hMVSflMRA

I-S (M-G rumblings closed)
irishlodz Activity: 1 / 132
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 ♂
 
10 Jul 2010  #64

Is it possible "politically" to give back Lwow to Poland

Lwow was an island city of Poles surrounded by land inhabited by ethnic Ukraines. Also a large proportion of the Population were Jewish and targeted by the nazi's. After the war Lwow and its institutions, people etc were re-located en masse to the new city or Wroclaw post war.

Wilno/Vilnus was a more Polish city and unlike Lwow was surrounded by Poles.
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,546
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
10 Jul 2010  #65

Lwow was an island city of Poles surrounded

you don't know much do you?
Pharosmaster Activity: - / 6
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #66

Thank you irishlodz I was thinking exactly what you said whilst I was reading this thread. Many comparisons can be made between pre-war Lwow/Lviv and Breslau/Wroclaw for example, but the ethnic situations were quite different.The Curzon Line (Polands current eastern border) corresponds quite well to the Ethnic situation at the time, apart from the area around Hrodna (Grodno)- Vilnius (Wilna).

Lwow was indeed a Polish/Jewish island. Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad) and Breslau (Wroclaw) on the other hand were German cities surrounded by ethnic German territory. And by German I mean the language and culture.

So if you disregard the fact that these territorial changes are very unlikely in the first place, it seems more likely that Russia will abandon the historically not Russian (nor Polish, as a matter of fact, Northern East Prussia was never settled by Poles and user: Crow's comment on p2 is wrong- East Prussia was settled by the 'Old Prussians' before the Germans, a baltic people like the Lithuanians so not slavic) Kaliningrad Oblast and return it to Germany rather than Ukraine ceding Lviv, which had a significant Ukranian population around it even before WWII.
Sokrates Activity: 8 / 3,352
Joined: 19 Jan 2009 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #67

apart from the area around Hrodna (Grodno)- Vilnius (Wilna).

And Lwów, also since when are ethnic borders OK? By that logic quite a few countries are about to lose a bit of their territory, Germany including.

Lwow was indeed a Polish/Jewish island.

The problem here is that the population of Lwów and its polish subburbs was 2 times greater then the surrounding Ukrainians (2 million ethnic Poles and polonised minorities as opposed to approximately a million rural Ukrainians).

Also virtually all the towns in western Ukraine were predominantly polish so Lwów was not exactly an island.

Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad)

Yeah be carefull with that one, thats not exactly true.

Lviv, which had a significant Ukranian population around it even before WWII.

Thats completely false, Lwów didnt have a significant Ukrainian population for the past 400 years, at its peak 550 years ago it reached 48%, 500 years ago it was 23% and in 1939% it was 9%.

By comparison Poles constituted 72% of the population with 13% of the population being Jewish for a grand total of 85%, 6% more were Germans, Ormian, Tartars and Gypsies.

Then you get the whooping 9% of Ukrainians, for the past 400% at no point did the Ukrainian population exceed 15% and at no point did Polish majority fell below 60%
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #68

rather than Ukraine ceding Lviv, which had a significant Ukranian population around it even before WWII.

Absolutely.

The problem here is that the population of Lwów and its polish subburbs was 2 times greater then the surrounding Ukrainians (2 million ethnic Poles and polonised minorities as opposed to approximately a million rural Ukrainians).

Population of L'viv in 1939 is estimated at 340,000 people. Right now in 2010 it is around 800,000. Where you sucked all this 2 million BS out will forever remain a mystery :)

1900: 686,000
1925: 1,003,000
1939: 1,300,000
1945: 422,000 (September)
1950: 803,800
1960: 1,136,000
1970: 1,315,600
1980: 1,596,100
1990: 1,655,700
2000: 1,672,400
2002: 1,688,200
2006: 1,702,100[54]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw#19th_to_20th_century

So in Warsaw there were 1.3 million PEOPLE (all nationalities) and in Ukrainian L'viv there were 2 million POLES ;) You still cannot manage 2 million PEOPLE in 2010 (70 years later) ;)

Also virtually all the towns in western Ukraine were predominantly polish

Any source, tongue-flapper? ;)

was 23% and in 1939% it was 9%

Now it is 89%, how is that? ;)

for the past 400% at no point did the Ukrainian population exceed 15%

Slow down a bit, zając Poziomka, you already measured Ukrainian population in Ukraine as 200% ;) Take a deep breath and slowly blow my di*ck out :)
Sokrates Activity: 8 / 3,352
Joined: 19 Jan 2009 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #69

Population of L'viv in 1939 is estimated at 340,000 people. Right now in 2010 it is around 800,000. Where you sucked all this 2 million BS out will forever remain a mystery :)

Buddy Lwów and surrounding regions.

Now it is 89%, how is that? ;

Good but if your people become fascist like you Poland will simply settle the issue with Russia and you'll get partitioned.

You're exactly an example of ukrainian fascism creating its own history, the problem buddy is that your state is weak and unstable, if you become confrontatationist Poland will just b*tchslap you together with Russia, how is that?
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #70

confrontatationist

Read my post above, zając Poziomka ;) Take a deep breath and follow the instructions ;)

Good but if your people become fascist like you Poland will simply settle the issue with Russia and you'll get partitioned.

Before you wanted to do it just by yourself. What happened? Balls got curled up? ;)
PennBoy Activity: 77 / 2,444
Joined: 7 Dec 2008 ♂
 
27 Jul 2010  #71

Kaliningrad is a third world AIDS infested hellhole.

when did this happen?? i believe the Kaliningrad enclave is a special economic zone, meant to bring investment and Russians there, one of only 2 or 3 places in Russia allowed to build casinos. All this must bring in the Mafia, prostitutes, drugs and AIDS.
Sokrates Activity: 8 / 3,352
Joined: 19 Jan 2009 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #72

It was essentially a massive naval/army base, its entire infrastructure and economy was geared towards maintainance of nearly 180.000 military and 40.000 administrative personnel in the region, once Russia withdrew more then 70% of its personnel the region fell into crisis.
southern Activity: 76 / 7,116
Joined: 17 May 2007 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #73

1939: 1,300,000
1945: 422,000 (September

I guess the 900000 missing are Ukrainians.
Pharosmaster Activity: - / 6
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #74

Please note that I did not deny that Lwow had a mostly Polish population, I said

had a significant Ukranian population around

, emphasis on 'Around'. I did not say IN Lwow, I meant the countryside. This gave Ukraine a legitimate but obviously disputable claim, even before World War II. I'm not trying to say who has a better historical claim, because I don't really know myself (and the creators of Polands boundaries seemed unsure too, there was a line called Curzon B, which included Lviv in Poland but wasn't used), I'm just saying that because Ukraine has a valid historical claim to the area and currently has the area makes any territorial changes very very unlikely- answering the initial question of this thread...

It is correct to say that many towns in western Ukraine did have large Polish populations, this is a common pattern for the type of settlement undertaken by Poles, and by Germans and Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern Europe. You'll find it was a similar situation with Germans in the Greater Poland (Posen/Poznan) area.
Sokrates Activity: 8 / 3,352
Joined: 19 Jan 2009 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #75

I did not say IN Lwow, I meant the countryside. This gave Ukraine a legitimate but obviously disputable claim

Having a majority in the rural areas gives you a claim to the central urban area in which you have only a tiny minority? By what accouts would such claims be legitimate?

emphasis on 'Around'.

You're still wrong, the immidiate Lwów surrounding was also Polish.

I'm just saying that because Ukraine has a valid historical claim to the area and currently has the area makes any territorial changes very very unlikely

Ukraine does not have a valid claim to the area, they didnt develop it, they didnt build its towns and cities, if it wasnt for Poland and to the lesser extent Russia the place would still be a wasteland, i'm opposed to any agressive takeover but the fact that Ukrainians built a life on what was Polish property and fruits of polish labour is indisputable.

You'll find it was a similar situation with Germans in the Greater Poland (Posen/Poznan) area.

Um no, thats the problem Germans were never a majority in Greater Poland or Poznań, the problem when comparing German partitioners is that they came to a developed nation and took over, Poland came to a bunch of tribals who invited them to rule there and built a civilisation there.

After 500 years the tribals decided to become a nation and take the property of people who built said civilisation there, thats not a legitimate claim at all.
Bratwurst Boy Activity: 5 / 7,945
Joined: 2 Apr 2007 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #76

After 500 years the tribals decided to become a nation and take the property of people who built said civilisation there, thats not a legitimate claim at all.

Oh puleeeeze!
Sokrates Activity: 8 / 3,352
Joined: 19 Jan 2009 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #77

You want me to dig up the urban map of Ukraine before and after Poles moved in? There was no nation, no unified culture, no unified govt, no common heritage.

First thing Lwów got when Poles took over were actuall stone city walls instead of a f*cking earth and wood wall.
pgtx Activity: 30 / 3,174
Joined: 14 Feb 2009 ♀
 
28 Jul 2010  #78

Oh puleeeeze!

that's New Jersey accent...lol
Bratwurst Boy Activity: 5 / 7,945
Joined: 2 Apr 2007 ♂
 
28 Jul 2010  #79

You want me to dig up the urban map of Ukraine before and after Poles moved in?

Weren't you speaking about the Germans???
Pharosmaster Activity: - / 6
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #80

the tribals decided to become a nation

I shouldn't even reply to anyone who refers to "tribals". And I won't anymore.

Having a majority in the rural areas gives you a claim to the central urban area in which you have only a tiny minority?

Yes.

Ukraine does not have a valid claim to the area, they didnt develop it, they didnt build its towns and cities

They lived in the territory and made up a large percentage of the population, and were there before the Poles... claim established.

the problem when comparing German partitioners is that they came to a developed nation and took over, Poland came to a bunch of tribals

You'll find that if you examine the history the German settlers in Poland were also invited and that basically all medieval Polish towns either introduced the German Town Law that came with them or were founded with it, such as the Magdeburg or Luebeck laws (In Poland in the form of Neumarkt, Kulm or Danzig laws, for example). This had a significant positive influence on the development of Poland.The partitions came long after that.

And the Kievan Rus was a respectable state much like Poland.
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,546
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #81

Lwow, I meant the countryside.

don't **** me off !
From Przemysl to Kiev Polish and Ukrainian population were exactly mixed, in pockets alternately with prevalence Poles then Ukrainians and other way around !

Problem with Lwow and surrounding areas were similar in this respect and as Poles couldn't claim definite majority (in this specific territory)but so couldn't Ukrainians.

Secondly those lands were part of Polish Kingdom for century's( since 1347(?) ), whereas Ukrainian first state arisen in 1991.

They lived in the territory and made up a large percentage of the population, and were there before the Poles... claim established.

Who was before Poles ? tell me? Definitely not Ukrainians, who's national birth-date is set on about 1848!
Sure they can claim to be ancient and whomever like Romanians claim to be Thracian and Roman at their claims. However wishful thinking and some dose of probability doesn't make it so, an there one tiny detail - lack of continuous statehood !

Claims about states before 1300 are mythical if in Europe we would recognize such claims - order would crumbled !
As for percentage of population is new toy like in Kosovo - whereas is right or wrong fairy
is silent about it !

he Kievan Rus was a respectable state much like Poland.

RIP!
What is has to do with our subject?
Let Assume for a moment that Ukrainians are in some spiritual way progeny of Kievan Rus - which is not true!
What it has do to with Lwow ? It was rightful inheritance of King Kazimierz, part of the Crown ever since till the partition !
What it matters that for some time those lands were ruled by Scandinavian Vikings meaning dynasty of Ruryk - dukes In Kiev !
Before that these land were in Polish dynasty hands = on and off like borderlands in middle-ages !
rychlik Activity: 41 / 374
Joined: 6 Aug 2008 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #82

they still want Wrocław back

S'tupid Nazi Krauts! Wroclaw was rebuilt by Polish people! It is no longer German! I suppose the Krauts can get a nice Wroclaw and the Poles can get a run down Lwow?
Nathan Activity: 18 / 1,373
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #83

You want me to dig up the urban map of Ukraine before and after Poles moved in?

I do. And along post a map of so-called "Polish" area in the same time frame. I am really anxious to see the process of "culture transfer" from "highly developed Poles to a wild Ukrainian tribe" ;)

There is a few interesting maps of that time:

Poland 1300

Kievan Rus

You're still wrong, the immidiate Lwów surrounding was also Polish.

How immediate? Be more specific ;) Two meters from the city wall? If in the city itself Poles made only 60% after policies of Sanation, Polonization and ethnic discrimination, then what do you expect to see in the outskirts?

Ukraine does not have a valid claim to the area, they didnt develop it, they didnt build its towns and cities, if it wasnt for Poland and to the lesser extent Russia the place would still be a wasteland

We can claim easily the cities I mentioned below, which are currently in Poland, but Ukrainians are more intelligent than that :)
Here are some excerpts on who built what:

Kievan Rus', although sparsely populated compared to Western Europe,[14] was not only the largest contemporary European state in terms of area but also culturally advanced.[15]

According to you Poles had to bring even more advancement since for ages your nation had the highest IQ in Europe. Who can argue with that? ;)

(In Kievan Rus') certain inalienable rights were accorded to women, such as property and inheritance rights.[20][21][22]

I bet Poles were running for their women with axes at that time to have sex. Guess where they run to? ;)

As birch bark documents attest, they exchanged love letters and prepared cheat sheets for schools.

Love letters and cheat sheets! I mean at the time when Poles where expressing their love to women by axes and mating bull-roars. How pathetic. My condolences to beautiful Polish women to have to deal with these wild boars.

The economic development of Kievan Rus may be translated into demographic statistics. Around 1200, Kiev had a population of 50,000, Novgorod and Chernigov both had around 30,000.[23] Constantinople had population of about 400,000 around 1180.[24] The Soviet scholar Mikhail Tikhomirov calculated that Kievan Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion had around 300 urban centers.[25]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus

Show me population of Warsaw in 1200 ;)
Also look at the maps above and tell me who built these cities where Poles haven't even put their foot in yet and Russian state didn't exist? Peremyshel', Kholm and Jaroslawl were not built by Poles, but by Ukrainians (called Rusins at that time), but these cities are in Poland now. Ukraine doesn't claim them, so be happy to hold them.

who's national birth-date is set on about 1848!

Give the source of this "set birth date" of my nation?

whereas Ukrainian first state arisen in 1991.

Be kind to provide a single source stating that Ukrainian state "first arisen" in 1991.

Let Assume for a moment that Ukrainians are in some spiritual way progeny of Kievan Rus - which is not true!

Well, world-renowned encyclopedia states otherwise:

According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, Ukrainian is a lineal descendant of the colloquial language of Kievan Rus'.[28]

Well, it is not Encyclopedia Lomżanika, of course, which has the world's greatest recognition, but still it means something :)
And at the end there is some info on ways Poles made the majority in L`viv:

At the same time, the Polish government reduced the rights of the local Ukrainians, closing down many of the Ukrainian schools.[3] or turning them into bilingual Ukrainian-Polish ones that were, in effect, Polish. Increased Polish settlement reduced the relative percentage of the Ukrainian population in the city, from around 20% in 1910 to less than 12% by 1931. At the university, all Ukrainian departments that had opened during the period of AUSTRIAN RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! were closed save for one, the 1848 Department of Ruthenian Language and Literature, whose chair position was allowed to remain vacant until 1927 before being filled by an ethnic Pole (How would you call that BS?).[4] Most Ukrainian professors were fired, and entrance of ethnic Ukrainians was restricted; in response an underground university in Lwów, and a Ukrainian Free University in Vienna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (later moved to Prague) [5] were established[citation needed].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lviv

Why did I point Austria and Vienna? Because Austrians are not fukcing SLAVS and still let normal existance to Ukrainian university while SLAVS, in this case Poles, would not only close university, but fire profs and steal schools and then dare to claim: ``Oh look, the professors in L`viv were all Polish`` Yes, that`s true - you have the highest IQ in Europe, that`s why. How could I ignore that fact? ;(

And you tell me you had majority and brought ``culture`` to wild Ukrainians???? Damn, I am so happy you are out that you cannot imagine :)
Sasha Activity: 2 / 1,082
Joined: 19 Apr 2008 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #84

Also look at the maps above and tell me who built these cities where Poles haven't even put their foot in yet and Russian state didn't exist?

I perfectly know what you imply but it's a way more correct to say that Russia hadn't developed yet into the latter structure (hadn't spread eastwards that much). The best I can offer you is that Ukrainians shared history with whom we know now as the Russians but you monopolizing it is just another new-Ukrainian fairy-tale and history revisionism. :)
Pharosmaster Activity: - / 6
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #85

Who was before Poles ? tell me? Definitely not Ukrainians, who's national birth-date is set on about 1848!

We'll I'm just going to say it: The Polish people did not exist before 1919, they magically appeared out of the hidden annals of history, since they could not possibly have existed since Poland did not exist... (!)

Ethnicity has no connection to the existence of a Nation State. There were German and Greek people before the German Empire or the Kingdom of Greece were founded in the 19th century, for example. Nationalism- the idea of having a state based on ethnicity and language- is a very modern one and did not exist about 250 years ago. 'Nationality' (or 'ethnicity') is a modern concept that is often back-dated to apply to people that did did not actually have a national consciousness.

Obviously there were Ukrainians and their ancestors before the modern Ukrainian nation state was founded.
Czarnkow1940 Activity: 5 / 95
Joined: 5 Mar 2010 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #86

The Polish people did not exist before 1919

Are you really that stupid?

since they could not possibly have existed since Poland did not exist

Just because was stolen for for a couple of hundred years dosent mean it didnt exist before the first polish state was created in 966 by Mieszko I .But I guess he wasnt polish becuase they didnt exist until 1919 .... well according to you anyway ;)
plk123 Activity: 8 / 4,171
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #87

Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?

this has to be one of the more ridiculous threads on here yet.. are we ready to give up Szczecin and possibly Wroclaw then?

Pharosmaster

wow and this has to be the cream of the crop of dumb..
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,546
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #88

The Polish people did not exist before 1919, they magically appeared out of the hidden annals of history, since they could not possibly have existed since Poland did not exist...

You must be slow!
Show me a country which existed for at last 10years with the name Ukraine or where nation called themselves Ukrainians, before 1991 that is!?
Do just that ! And I will forget your moronic statement regarding Poland !

Ethnicity has no connection to the existence of a Nation State.

really, so why call it a nation state ?for fun?

There were German and Greek people before the German Empire or the Kingdom of Greece were founded in the 19th century,

There were German states for centuries before, in fact there were dozen German states !and German Empire consisted many ethic minorities
Greeks are more complicated, I would say they were forged during long Ottoman domination, but that had long history before that, as a Romans ........

Obviously there were Ukrainians and their ancestors before the modern Ukrainian nation state was founded.

yes before 1991 - I agree !
However what is has to do with the land?

Let say you have a tenant who is living on your land, one day he discovers that he is a distant relative of previous owner from whom your grand grand father bought this land.

He then claims to be the owner based on unproven claim (very real in his mind) that he is relative, rumours that your grand-grandfather somehow tricked previous owner, and that his family consist from 10 members and yours only 7 (living with you).

What would you say eh?
Zed Activity: - / 197
Joined: 25 May 2010 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #89

This discussion is so stupid. Lwow is now Ukrainian and it will stay that way. I guess all I would like from current owners of the city is for them to spruce up the city and to try to expose polish traces and history of the city. That way they will have thousands of polish visitors flocking to spend their money there :-). Just like it is in Vilnius now (albeit, Lithuanians are quite good at playing down polish influence there)
Czarnkow1940 Activity: 5 / 95
Joined: 5 Mar 2010 ♂
 
29 Jul 2010  #90

Lwow is now Ukrainian and it will stay that way.

You wish , one day it will return to Poland where it belongs.




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Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?
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