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Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?


delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
27 Jun 2010 #31
You went a little overboard calling Poland unstable and very overboard calling Russia stable.

Well - to be fair, Russia has been somewhat stable in terms of being consistently ruled with an iron fist and not being subject to partitions/etc. :) But I only mean it in terms of territorial integrity - the change in the map of Poland over the last 1000 years is incredible.

Lets assume we get Lwów back what then? Do you kick the Ukrainians out? If not then how do you integrate them into Poland, if yes then where will Poland get engineers, doctors, teachers, policemen, firemen and all these people essential to running a large city to settle in Lwów? We have a shortage of these people already.

I don't even want to imagine the nightmare of attempting to integrate the Lviv Oblast into Poland. It could only realistically be done by giving the territory a huge amount of autonomy.

Poland is actually very fortunate in that she has a large country with a vastly dominant Polish majority. What would be the sense in incorporating a huge, poor territory with dreadful infrastructure and irritated minorities?

Sure, it's romantic to think of Lwów being Polish once more - but it's just not practical. The far more sensible option for Poland would be to do exactly as the Germans have done in Poland - buy everything in sight.

No :) We let them work for us, like they'e been doing for centuries.

Do you really think Ukranians, after so long being held down and occupied by Russians, Poles and Austrians are suddenly going to be happy to give up their independence? Don't be ridiculous.

I wonder just how much Polish-era infrastructure is still in place in Lviv though?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #32
Ever heard about the silesian piasts?

Yeah i did, last of them died out 600~ years ago.

Wroclaw and the whole Silesia was ruled under the Silesian branch of the polish piasts untill the end of the 1700'th century.

Woah there buddy, Wrocław was ruled by Poland only untill 1241 when the Mongol invasion forced Poles to flee and the city got burnt to the ground, afterwards it was repopulated by Germans, by 17th century it was interchangably austrian and prussian.

No :) We let them work for us, like they'e been doing for centuries.

If you're so brave why dont you go to Lwów and explain to Ukrainians how they should work for us, i promise to notify your mother you died a heroic death while running and screaming like a little girl :)))))

Where is a will there is a way

By all means if there's a way tell me.

so is good to predict some problems to find a way to avoid them- is that clear enough

We dont have people to settle Lwów, we dont have money to put it back to shape, those two problems (ignoring the completely unrealistic scenario that it is) are pretty much insurmountable.

Germans lost. Poland won( at last theoretically), German aggressors, evicting population, grabbing land - who seeds wind, harvest tempest or what goes around comes around :)

Similar doesn't means the same!

Lovely, ever occurred to you that Germans wont care? Neither will Europe and even if they dont get Wrocław back we'll be wide open to a variety of claims, including Belarus, Lithuanian, Czech republic, we'll make an enemy of Ukraine and while Ukraine is and will be too weak to threaten Poland in a predictable future it will become a russian proxy in a way that seriously f*cks up Polands security?

You're unrealistic and unreasonable.

Well - to be fair, Russia has been somewhat stable in terms of being consistently ruled with an iron fist and not being subject to partitions/etc. :)

True true and what are a few minor revolutions and a few civil wars here and there.

But I only mean it in terms of territorial integrity - the change in the map of Poland over the last 1000 years is incredible.

Sh*t happens, look at where the Roman Empire is today, yeah nowhere but we're still around and kicking.
OP David_18 68 | 982
27 Jun 2010 #33
I wonder just how much Polish-era infrastructure is still in place in Lviv though?

LWOW you betrayer!!!!!

Anyway i guess most of it is still there, but in bad shape.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #34
I wonder just how much Polish-era infrastructure is still in place in Lviv though?

Almost all of it, plumbing, cobblestone roads, fire plugs etc.

Much of the sewage and fireplugs are still from polish times
OP David_18 68 | 982
27 Jun 2010 #35
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Piasts
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #36
David_18Threads: 29
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Yes David but these guys were germinised and the crushing majority of Wrocławs population was German, western part of Silesia stopped being polish in 13 century, central and eastern parts remained Polish throught history but not Wrocław.
Ironside 50 | 11,056
27 Jun 2010 #37
You're unrealistic and unreasonable.

to you as you are thinking in seconds, anyway is purely theoretical discussion and my aim is only to convince that Lwów should belong to Poland, that is first step.

BB
Is not the same.....
OP David_18 68 | 982
27 Jun 2010 #38
Yes David but these guys were germinised and the crushing majority of Wrocławs population was German, western part of Silesia stopped being polish in 13 century, central and eastern parts remained Polish throught history but not Wrocław.

German??????? Germany didn't exist at that time.

Silesia was a duchy that was very closely connected with Poland by BLOOD.

Wrocławs population was German

Yah well in that case Gdansk should be considered german also right? same with Riga...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Silesian_War

Last Silesian piast
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_William,_Duke_of_Liegnitz

Duke Christian, who spent many years in exile during the Thirty Years War, and after the abdication of John Casimir from the Polish throne, put his own candidacy for the throne of Poland;

Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,553
27 Jun 2010 #39
Yah well in that case Gdansk should be considered german also right?

Yeah well, Danzig was to 95 percent German at the last census before the war...you can't get much more Germany than that.

And disputing Danzig or Breslau history won't change the Lwow realities of today.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #40
German??????? Germany didn't exist at that time.

German people did exist.

Silesia was a duchy that was very closely connected with Poland by BLOOD.

Untill 13-14th centuries when the majority of the ducal subjects became Germans with the exception of Greater Poland.

I'm well aware of the silesian Piasts and their history its just that in the end the region they ruled was predominantly german inhabited.

to you as you are thinking in seconds, anyway is purely theoretical discussion and my aim is only to convince that Lwów should belong to Poland, that is first step.

The only reason to discuss anything in theory is if its appliable in practice, we have no hope of recovering Lwów if only due to Poland being underpopulated therefore discussing principles is pointless.

Is not the same.....

Germans didnt found Wrocław.
Poles didnt found Lwów.

Germans aquired Wrocław in the 13 century.
Poles aquired Lwów in the 13 century.

Germans developed Wrocław into one of the primary urban centers of eastern Germany.
Poles developed Lwów into one of the primary urban centers of eastern Poland.

Germans lost Wrocław after WW2.
Poles lost Lwów after WW2.

You were saying?
OP David_18 68 | 982
27 Jun 2010 #41
Yeah well, Danzig was to 95 percent German at the last census before the war...you can't get much more Germany than that.

And kaliningrad is 99% russian today so that means that it's a russian city with no historical connections to Germany right?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #42
Yeah well, Danzig was to 95 percent German at the last census before the war...you can't get much more Germany than that.

BB only because Germans butchered the Poles to make room, Gdańsk was built and run by Poles untill 14 century but even when Germans first a minority then a majority were present in Gdańsk it was officially under Poland in one way or the other.

We can agree that Germans had a huge contribution to Gdańsk history but no way in heck is it a german city.

David makes a good point about Kaliningrad too, Gdańsk became Danzing only after partitions.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,553
27 Jun 2010 #43
And kaliningrad is 99% russian today so that means that it's a russian city with no historical connections to Germany right?

Past is past and present is present...and Kant is long dead, he doesn't care anymore!

Such a useless discussion...Should we ethnical cleanse Kaliningrad? Could we ever rebuild it to former glory? No and no...so what!
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
27 Jun 2010 #44
"Lwow and Kaliningrad"??

Feels weird to mix languages like that. Call it Lviv and Kaliningrad or Lwów and Królewiec... This website provides all the Polish letters by the way, feel free to use them.

Just my take on it...
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,004
27 Jun 2010 #45
Unless all nukes are destroyed and the technology gone, there is no chance in hell for such imperial ambitions :)
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,004
27 Jun 2010 #47
I am replying to nobody I am just saying my opinion, that Lviv in untouchable until the nuclear technology is gone
Zed - | 195
27 Jun 2010 #48
Bratwurst is right.... I crave bratwurst and so it appears I have to go to Berlin again :-)
Ironside 50 | 11,056
27 Jun 2010 #49
You were saying?

that you are thinking in seconds.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
27 Jun 2010 #50
It is not bad idea to give Kaliningrad back to Germany, but in the same time, it will be good idea to L'vov to Germany too. Then, Poland will be surrounded by German territory and sooner or late we all shall get rid of such neighbour !
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
27 Jun 2010 #51
LWOW you betrayer!!!!!

The English name is Lviv. I can understand Poles using the Polish name (it's natural) - but it's Lviv to me.

Much of the sewage and fireplugs are still from polish times:

Bloody hell - thank you for that. I must take a closer look this summer!
OP David_18 68 | 982
27 Jun 2010 #52
It is not bad idea to give Kaliningrad back to Germany, but in the same time!

Im serious now. iv'e been seeing you posting this russian nonsense for quite some time now.

And my conclusion is this. That you are paid by the Russian Kgb to spread russian Propaganda over the internet, and you get a bonus for every poor soul you succeed to brainwash.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
27 Jun 2010 #53
nd my conclusion is this..

Certainly I am. I don't want to argue with you. You, I mean Poles, always think this way. Above all, what is wrong in KGB, is CIA better?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Jun 2010 #54
that you are thinking in seconds.

We can get into details Iron there's plenty more similarities.

Bloody hell - thank you for that. I must take a closer look this summer!

You might want to check back alleys too there's dozens of busts of polish artists, commanders or scientists, some even still recognisiable (stand by for pictures gotta dig).
polishmeknob 5 | 155
27 Jun 2010 #55
Kaliningrad is the most fortified place in Europe and Russia's only western port that doesn't risk freezing over in the winter; they're not going to give it up without a fight (literally.)

Ukraine doesn't even want to give the Crimea back to Russia, so they probably aren't going to hand over Lwow. Also, Germany would probably want Wroclaw and Szczecin back (amongst other cities.)
Cud nad Wisla - | 6
7 Jul 2010 #56
Interesting discussion, I think alot of injustice went on but the borders had to be redrawn somehow. Germany definitely fared worst out of the post war redrawn map of Europe losing Konigsberg, all claim to Gdansk/Danzig and even territories west of the Oder-Neisse line like Stettin/Szczecin. If Hitler had not been such a maniac then Germany would be so much bigger today. If the original populations were still there then an argument could be made for redrawing the borders but as people have been expelled and resettled in every direction I think the Poles will have to accept the loss of Lwow and the Germans will have to accept the loss of East Prussia.

We Irish have to accept the loss of Belfast! ;) Maybe some day she will return to the motherland.
Ironside 50 | 11,056
9 Jul 2010 #57
Germany definitely fared worst out of the post war redrawn map of Europe

really? who told you that?
Crow 148 | 9,321
9 Jul 2010 #58
Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible?

Giveing back Lwow to Poland is internal Slavic question and it is possible to achieve thru negotiations.

but, giving back Kaliningrad to Germany is impossible. its even ridiculous to ask something like that in situation when complete Eastern Germany (minimum) was by hostile Germanics forcible cut from Slavic world. Let Germany stop to exist and return all germanized Slavs and all Slavic lands that was stolen, to Slavic world.
Czarnkow1940 5 | 95
10 Jul 2010 #59
Is it possible "politically" to give back Lwow to Poland

If you mean by "politically" to invade Ukraine and steal it back than it is possible but if you that Ukraine will give it as a gift to Poland then there is no chance.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
10 Jul 2010 #60
We Irish have to accept the loss of Belfast! ;) Maybe some day she will return to the motherland

This is not about Ireland, read the title.

By the way most in Belfast are pretty happy to be British or at least the ones I know :D


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