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Should David Irving, Holocaust denier, be allowed to run tours to Poland?


SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Sep 2010 #181
report children as young as three to the authorities

That's not holocaust denial to incitement to riot, that's a load of crap.

That's exactly what I meant Seanie!

We are not talking about the same thing any more, this has gone in to censorship, which I am against as it serves no purpose within a society to mess with kids in this way.

It get's abused far to much...and does this law really stop people from bullying others verbally? I don't think so...
Best thing is till to give back as good as you get!

It is not the same law at all.

...and I would have told them what I think of them VERY explicitely!!!

While on fire, no doubt :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
25 Sep 2010 #182
That's not holocaust denial to incitement to riot, that's a load of crap.

MY SAYING!!!!

You talk about the next Hitler and stopping riots but using this laws EVERYBODY and his grandmom can become accused for CRAP!!!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Sep 2010 #183
It's a different law.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
25 Sep 2010 #184
Hate crimes...hate speech....it has the same whiff to me.

The idea behind it might have been good, to stop holocaust denial, to make society somewhat nicer, to make races more friendlier to each other but it achieved nothing of that kind.

Racists stay racists, holocaust deniers still deny, society is still the same old but lawyers have alot new cases and everybody now can become the focus of an self righteous snitch.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Sep 2010 #185
The idea behind it might have been good, to stop holocaust denial, to make society somewhat nicer, to make races more friendlier to each other but it achieved nothing of that kind.

I don't think that was the point.

Third time's a charm:)
I am saying, you are a member of society and with that you have the right to exist and have your own identity and thoughts, without being in fear of your life.

This thing with the kids has nothing to do with fear of being killed or anything really that I would care about. In fact this type of censorship is what I was told communism was like and is an infringement to our rights, in my opinion.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
25 Sep 2010 #186
I am saying, you are a member of society and with that you have the right to exist and have your own identity and thoughts, without being in fear of your life.

And the Hate-speech-law is telling me that???

In fact this type of censorship is what I was told communism was like and is an infringement to our rights, in my opinion.

THAT's what I was telling all the time! It IS a sign of a dictatorship!!!

Okay...I'm leaving now before you are calling me a thickheaded stupid and I call my lawyer!

;)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Sep 2010 #187
And the Hate-speech-law is telling me that???

How would you prevent an extremist rally congregating on your front lawn?

Okay...I'm leaving now before you are calling me a thickheaded stupid and I call my lawyer!

My lawyer is bigger than yours and would kick your lawyer's ass.

So BB, why do we have moderators on PF?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
25 Sep 2010 #188
How would you prevent an extremist rally congregating on your front lawn?

We have another much more scary law for that: "Ruhestörung"!
You call the police and after 5 minutes all is over...

So BB, why do we have moderators on PF?

For kidnapping and torturing poor little helmets (and their wearers)

My lawyer is bigger than yours and would kick your lawyer's ass.

Mine has hair on her chest!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Sep 2010 #189
You call the police and after 5 minutes all is over...

5 minutes might be too late, you know what I mean, this is about organised hate crime not a few lads egging your house.

For kidnapping and torturing poor little helmets (and their wearers)

Yes and what else? you big sissy :)

Mine has hair on her chest!

Hmmm... I think I wouldn't like to see your lawyer after all.
Ironside 48 | 9,900
25 Sep 2010 #190
No, not

That what I have in mind MODS - if someone was going to post some history thesis on PF - he should be made post some real prove of his controversial views.

Few names and his flippant pseudo-logic shouldn't be enough - but it is and that is my beef with mods about history threads here, let them bring prove and make them sweat - they have too easy in here! Any nonsense plus boldness and voile - you are on the roll!
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
26 Sep 2010 #191
It wasn't his talking what brought the Nazis to power

Would you also deny the talent of that man?
youtube.com/watch?v=mZ6IzDhZhoI
Harry
26 Sep 2010 #192
So you mean that you can not argue with what I actually said, so instead you will make up things and claim I said them. As we both know, I did not say "a considerable number of such full-blooded Poles in Trawniki", in fact I never even used the words full-blooded. I said "the Poles", no mention of 'considerable number'. Do I know how many Poles? No. But I do know it was more than one, so therefore it is correct to use the plural form.

I didn't say anything about him because I've missed him. But searching around now I haven't yet found any proof of his supposed ethnic Polishness, therefore you calling him a Pole and me calling him a non-Pole is equally correct.

Fine, lie and keep lying. Here is a quote from the link I posted in this post"

On February 26, 1945, Kazimiera [Hadja, Bronislaw's sister] signed two statements (both contained in a single document). ... In the second one, a typed statement, she said, "My brother Bronislaw Hajda, was a Pole like myself, but he was employed in the so-called 'Wachmannschaft' [guard forces] of the 'Sonderstab' [special staff] in Jedrzejow."

His sister says that he is a Pole. Funny how you have been searching and couldn't find anything.

Of course, there might have been an odd one there, just as there might have been an odd one Jew in the disguise there. yet, strangely, I can't picture you telling our Jewish members that they might have been another of the Jews who trained at Trawniki before serving at the Aktion Reinhard camps.

That would be because none of them behave like Dariusz. If they did, I'd be quite happy to compare them to such people (although I'd probably compare them to the Gang of Thirteen).

The explanation of Polishness was yours, try to keep to your own definitions. As for reasonable interpetations, Vetala explained it already. You don't take it, your problem.

As has already been pointed out to you, it is actually the definition of the Polish state: a child born in Poland to Polish parents is a Pole. Even if he does then go on to commit unspeakable evil.

Try not to go personal, Harry, the Mod kindly requested. And if you can't, understandably, refrain from personal remarks, try at least to find something you could call a substantiated opinion if pressed.

Thanks for the laugh of the day! You say that after having previously said to me you're still a sorry twa" As for substance, you'll note that I've been providing links to sources to confirm what I say, the best you can come up with is 'He doesn't have a Polish sounding name, so he can't be Polish.' Pathetic, even by your standards.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
26 Sep 2010 #193
What does the ancestry of these men have to do with what they did?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Chaim_Rumkowski
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_dem_Bach-Zelewski
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Sep 2010 #194
You do realise all of them are of polish ancestry with Mannstein being from a family of almost pure Poles who married with other polish-prussian aristocracy? To be fair though ethnicity was the only thing polish in them, they spoke german, could not utter a word in polish and lost any and all polish heritage since several generations by then.
Stu 12 | 522
27 Sep 2010 #195
No, I don't, I see a problem with brain washing people in to hating others.

Funny you should say that, when I seem to remember you saying that soldiers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan had it coming to them. For me that is also brain washing people in to hating others. Kind of like the Westboro Church.
ukpolska
27 Sep 2010 #196
Historian denies existence of Holocaust-denier David Irving
thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i83275

A historian has caused controversy over claims that Holocaust-denying historian David Irving doesn't actually exist.

The historian, Irving David, made the bold claims despite the seemingly insurmountable and incontrovertible weight of evidence against him.

David dismissed books, documents, photographs, legal transcripts and samples of his DNA as "bogus" and suggested they had all been forged by those with a political agenda to "give credence to the preposterous and bizarre notion" of Irving's existence. The two men had actually met before at the Struggling Historian's Ignorant Tirades (zhit) annual debate but David was quick to denounce this man as an "impostor".


The guy is a cretin and should be rightly ridiculed as such!!!
trener zolwia 1 | 940
27 Sep 2010 #197
Historian denies existence of Holocaust-denier David Irving

LOL! Excellent! :D
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
27 Sep 2010 #198
I seem to remember you saying that soldiers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan had it coming to them.

That must have been someone else, I certainly said no such thing.

I have posted about Poland, Afghanistan and Iraq and I am against the war BUT I never said anyone deserved to die.

What was that you said about brain washing?

And what has that got to do with this thread anyway?
Stu 12 | 522
27 Sep 2010 #199
SeanBM, if I accused you falsely, then please accept my apologies.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
27 Sep 2010 #200
No problem, I am against the war because I don't think anyone should have to die.
I did right that a good soldier carries out his orders, I can't blame good soldiers.
I hold the governments totally responsible.

Edit*
Wait a sec, perhaps I was not clear on a post

Marek11111:
"A US-led Polish soldier has been killed in a roadside bomb blast in eastern Afghanistan, amid an increase in the number of such incidents in the country.

I hate when people being killed are refereed to as 'incidents' and I see now that this post could be interrupted as if I would want to see people dead.

But you will just have to take my word for it and excuse my poor communication skills.

Historian denies existence of Holocaust-denier David Irving

That is just class :)
nott 3 | 594
27 Sep 2010 #201
Classic, I'd say. A comic engaging in a discussion on history. Ha ha.
trener zolwia 1 | 940
28 Sep 2010 #202
Here's the sort of stuff he's spouting on his "history" tours...

Controversial British historian David Irving praised Adolf Hitler as 'a great man' and his Gestapo as 'fabulous policeman' on his shocking tour of former Nazi death camps in Poland.
Irving said Hitler was not 'immoral' but was let down by lesser people in the Nazi regime

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315591/David-Irving-claims-Hitler-great-man-leads-Nazi-death-camp-tours.html
nott 3 | 594
28 Sep 2010 #203
Here's the sort of stuff he's spouting on his "history" tours...

To be frank, I'd rather see something else than Corriere della Sera article reported by the Mail Online...
nott 3 | 594
28 Sep 2010 #205
And some are being created by the sources. Both these newspapers are known for 'economical use of truth'. One thing drew my attention immediately: the Mail repeated at least three times that Irving was praising Hitler. Thing not to be overlooked however quickly you browse the text.
trener zolwia 1 | 940
28 Sep 2010 #206
And some are being created by the sources.

Oh, I get what you mean. Me, I am a big sceptic /critic of our Lying Liberal Media over here. Sure they can spin and slant stories and accounts, and they often do. But basic facts and things like his quotes they cite are probably accurate...
nott 3 | 594
28 Sep 2010 #207
But basic facts and things like his quotes they cite are probably accurate...

I'd bet they got the quotations right, or at least satisfyingly close. Now if you compare the manipulative styling of the article with the actual explanation of why Irving praised Hitler, then it looks a bit different. Great man etc. is difficult to deny, he made quite a splash.

It's not that I am a fan of Hitler, I just don't like this witch-hunt approach.

Edit:
Off to bed. Nite.
trener zolwia 1 | 940
28 Sep 2010 #208
compare the manipulative styling of the article with the actual explanation of why Irving praised Hitler, then it looks a bit different.

witch-hunt approach.

True. With all the buzz surrounding this guy, I suspect they'd just been waiting for him to give his first tour so they could pounce with the story. Just about anything he said would have been played up...

Nite.

G'night, N.
George8600 10 | 637
28 Sep 2010 #209
Is Holocaust denial illegal in Poland?

If Poland is a democracy and freedom of speech and opinion/thought exists then no.
richasis 1 | 420
28 Sep 2010 #210
Historian denies existence of Holocaust-denier David Irving

Just like Israel denies the existence of Palestine?


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