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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #91
Sokrates: I believe that the only solution in Ukraine, whether against Cossacks, ukrainian fascists from UPA or Banderas army is, was and will be overwhelming terror, thats the only thing these people respect,try and talk to them like a human being and they'll murder your family, kill off half of them and they'll make you king.

You have a dislike of Ukrainians?...Is this personal or is there more to it?...

Yes, Sok is anti-Ukrainian. He tried to remind me of Ukrainian Uprising Army (UPA) to generate hatred in me now, over 60 years after the WWII was over, and no doubt he holds low opinion of Ukrainian girls. This is the same as if I was reminding of SS to generate hatred against German people now, or would say bad things on German girls.

To avoid any misunderstanding, my Mother was born and grew up in former East Lesser Poland (now Western Ukraine), so I should be anti-Ukrainian but I'm not.
Ironside 50 | 11,056
24 May 2011 #92
so I should be anti-Ukrainian but I'm not.

And your point is ?

Yes and i believe that the Cossacks should have been hunted down and exterminated,

If possible, you must remember that Catherine II done it with much greater army than Poland could possibly muster for a needed period of time.
GrzegorzK
24 May 2011 #93
Joining the EU will be Poland's biggest historical blunder. That and trusting France and Europe to back them up against Hitler.
Babinich 1 | 455
24 May 2011 #94
the supposed sale to the USSR at Yalta

The "sale" of Poland to the USSR occurred just before Tehran. A deal brokered by American and Soviet apparatchiks.

Churchill knew nothing about it.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #95
we have been steadily rising in terms of economy and power.

Germany could have you left out to dry after the iron curtain fell but they lobbied for Poland to join the EU...did you ever wonder why?

Poland get's Billions of EU-funds...Germany invest heavily in Poland...1/3 of your whole trade is with Germany...did you ever wonder why?

;)

Combined effect of our energy and German apathy (also to reproduce) will make us the kings of central Europe, like we should always be but for various reasons haven't been for the last 400 years LOL

Yeah! ROFL
And you wonder why you as a people never go anywhere...dreamers! Lala-land is the only country you will always be king of!

;)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #96
Germany could have you left out to dry after the iron curtain fell but they lobbied for Poland to join the EU...did you ever wonder why?
Poland get's Billions of EU-funds...Germany invest heavily in Poland...1/3 of your whole trade is with Germany...did you ever wonder why?

Germany doesn't invest that heavily though. We're getting like €70B over a 7 year period, which is peanuts and a tiny percentage of our GDP. It's nice that we're getting those money, but it's not crucial. Meanwhile, western Germany pumped into eastern Germany hundreds of billion € after 1990 and look where it led to - to Ostalgia LOL. You Germans surely liked your Russian overlords.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #97
Germany doesn't invest that heavily though. We're getting like €70B over a 7 year period, which is peanuts and a tiny percentage of our GDP. It's nice that we're getting those money, but it's not crucial.

ROFL
You would still look like Ukraine without Germany!

You Germans surely liked your Russian overlords.

Well, we fighted them and their victory cost them dearly...what did the Poles do again? Licking boots and saying "thank you" for 40 years ?

;)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #98
ROFL
You would still look like Ukraine without Germany!

You keep saying that, but we never looked like Ukraine.
edit: and what would Germany be without the Marshall plan?

Well, we fighted them and their victory cost them dearly...what did the Poles do again? Licking boots and saying "thank you" for 40 years ?

LOL wut? Poland became independent from Russians before DDR. In fact, DDR would still be under actual Russian occupation if not for the fall of communism triggered by Poles. Meanwhile Germany was peacefully and happily enjoying being ruled by a foreign country.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #99
LOL wut

OMG
Now it's stop being funny...Poles were "saved" and "rescued" by your dear slavic brothers the Russians and said "thank you" for decades afterwards.

Germany was the arch enemy and lost the most bloody war there ever was, we suffered occupation by the victors...how dare you to compare a proud warrior nation with bootlickers and slimers like Poles is outrageous.

Because that's what you are...now again you shoot against the Russians even as they liberated you and you also shoot against the Germans which were nothing but generous and helpful to your rebuilding as a nation.

And with what reason actually? You are really a twofaced people, b*itching about your "enemies" when nobody looks but openly bowing to either russian liberators or taking unashamedly german money and support as much as you can.
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #100
1) that GrzegorzK's post iss a load of crap.
2) Poland wasn't saved or rescued, unlike in Germany there was active and ongoing underground resistance against Russian occupation - case in point we were the first who got rid of it

3) we were bigger losers in that war than Germany, in terms of demographics, culture and infrastructure

And with what reason actually? You are really a twofaced people, b*itching about your "enemies" when nobody looks but openly bowing to either russian occupation or taking unashamedly german money and support as much as you can.

You never paid back for all the things you destroyed and stole during WW2. Handing money now is the only right thing to do.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #101
1) that GrzegorzK's post iss a load of crap.

Poland looked worse than the GDR in 1989, and that means something....fact!

2) Poland wasn't saved or rescued, unlike in Germany there was active and ongoing underground resistance against Russian occupation - case in point we were the first who got rid of it

Where would Poland be today if the Russians hadn't borne the brunt of the dirty ground war and won the war for the allies....not there, that's for sure.

3) we were bigger losers in that war than Germany, in terms of demographics, culture and infrastructure

That's why your country today is as big as Germany with not even the half of it's people...

You never paid back for all the things you destroyed and stole during WW2. Handing money now is the only right thing to do.

Give back what is now west Poland and we can talk about reparations...
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #102
Poland looked worse than the GDR in 1989, and that means something....fact!

We looked worse in terms of infrastructure, but we were more energetic and crime was actually smaller. I wonder why your eastern German bros means the GDR days though. It seems you can't organise daily life by yourselves, you need some overlords or the country is overrun by crazy nazis (why are there still nazis in Germany?).

That's why your country today is as big as Germany with not even the half of it's people...

But who caused that? You German genocidal barbarians. Our superior culture would never spring a thought of exterminating other nations, much less actually turning it into reality. Germany needs Poland if only to have a moral model to follow.

Give back what is now west Poland and we can talk about reparations...

Pay back for what you stole and destroyed (not those peanuts) and we might start talking about giving back western Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #103
We looked worse in terms of infrastructure, but we were more energetic and crime was actually smaller.

Really! You were more "energetic"! In what way...car theft??? Some support for that statement, a statistic or something?

ROFL

It seems you can't organise daily life by yourselves, you need some overlords or the country is overrun by crazy nazis (why are there still nazis in Germany?).

Yeah...that's why Germany right now hangs on the polish life drip and not the other way around .....no....wait...
Don't you have to laugh yourself writing such nonsense.
Poles only ever advanced under german leadership...be it Prussia back then or the EU now.

But who caused that?

Who caused what? Poles had been ever only about the half of the Germans...

Our superior culture would never spring a thought of exterminating other nations, much less actually turning it into reality.

Well...PolsciDump and even Sokrates tell you otherwise, they dream of genocide and mass murder...but you never pull anything off...from far above in lala-land! ;)

Germany needs Poland if only to have a moral model to follow.

...for that we have France! :(
Softsong 5 | 495
24 May 2011 #104
I think this is a good place to insert some wisdom: "It is what it is." Squabbling about what happened and who has been tougher, smarter, more generous, more powerful or in better shape now versus then, etc. is so pointless. What will happen if everyone agrees it was this way or that way? Nothing.

From across the ocean, it looks like everybody needs each other to prosper. But yeah...it is understandable that the past still haunts. But it is the past. You know the saying, nothing can change the past, and all the worrying about the future cannot accomplish anything. Now is the only time we have where what we do makes a difference.

And now I will take my Plastic Polish/German American self and be quiet..... ;-)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #105
Really! You were more "energetic"! In what way...car theft??? Some support for that statement, a statistic or something?

Simply the economic dynamics... You started off nicely in 1990, but quickly stagnated. Poland after dealing with the fact that Russian market collapsed picked up the steam and has been more dynamic ever since. That's as good measure of energy as any.

tradingeconomics.com/germany/percent-change-in-gdp-at-constant-prices-imf-data.html

tradingeconomics.com/poland/percent-change-in-gdp-at-constant-prices-imf-data.html

Well...PolsciDump and even Sokrates tell you otherwise...but you never pull anything off...from far above in lala-land! ;)

They're Germans in disguise.

...for that we have France! :(

The most cowardy nation in the world? Nice model to follow, LOL

I think this is a good place to insert some wisdom: "It is what it is."

The point of the discussion at hand is to stomp over each other, not to reach some universal wisdom! :P

OK, I'm heading off to work.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #106
Poland after dealing with the fact that Russian market collapsed picked up the steam and has been more dynamic ever since. That's as good measure of energy as any.

Hmmm...that's why millions of Poles left for better shores?
But you were talking about comparing Poland and the GDR...

Anyhow...nice talk....have to leave now for awhile! :)

The point of the discussion at hand is to stomp over each other, not to reach some universal wisdom! :P

So true! :)
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #107
From across the ocean, it looks like everybody needs each other to prosper. But yeah...it is understandable that the past still haunts. But it is the past. You know the saying, nothing can change the past, and all the worrying about the future cannot accomplish anything. Now is the only time we have where what we do makes a difference.

I could not say it better, and it also explains my point related to Sokrates. This intelligent guy continues spreading hate against Ukies without any understandable reason. (I do not comment PolskiMoc because I only can say I avoid feeding trolls and lunatics).

Big Polish historical blunders were: Invasion of Lithuania after WWI, invasion of Zaolzie after WWI and invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. None of these acts helped Poland gaining anything than hatred of her neighbours. Only in 1968 Poland had no chance to avoid her participation in the act.
Softsong 5 | 495
24 May 2011 #108
Thanks Antek! And I note that you answered the original question with candor.

The point of the discussion at hand is to stomp over each other, not to reach some universal wisdom! :P

Got admit....I do get a few big laughs out of this place! :-D
Harry
24 May 2011 #109
maybe mobilise and fight?send help?so what "things"did it do?

In September 1939 the British army had nine battle-ready divisions. Where exactly would you have liked them to attack Germany from? Remember that no country in Europe would give permission for an attack to be launched from their territory. Perhaps you envisage an amphibious assault on Hamburg? I asked you to tell us exactly what Britain could have done in September 1939 but did not do: you failed to tell us anything.

As for what Britain did do: bombing raids, moving aircraft to forward bases (action taken before war was declared), 70% of the regular army sent to France, attempted naval blockade of Germany (partly lifted after, in first two weeks of war, one British aircraft carrier sunk by U-boat and a second escaping only due to a malfunctioning German torpedo). You might learn in Polish schools that Britain did nothing, the reality is very different; as is reflected by the inability of Poles to go into detail as to exactly what Britain could have done in September 1939 but did not do.

of course, the Communists that You supported, killed many (mostly Poles), who is explainnig them?

Kindly either quote even a single post in which I support the post-war communist regime or admit that you were lying when you alleged that I support them.

What about forming the Western front with France and hitting them from the other side?

First British troops left for France on 10 September. Nice to see your knowledge of history is as good as ever.

Kinda like the British breaking the treaties with Czekoslovakia in 1938 so that Germans could take it over and then blaming Poles for taking back a few hectares from the Czechs already betrayed by the British and French.

Which treaty between Britain and Czechoslovakia was broken when the Sudetenland was returned to Germany? However, the Spa treaty between Poland and Czechoslovakia was most certainly broken when Poland invaded Czechoslovakia for the second of the century's three times.

I do love your comment about "taking back a few hectares", it so nicely shows the plastic Pole approach to Polish history: lie, lie, lie and keep lying. Or perhaps you can explain how an area of 801.5 km² can be a few hectares? Or how Poland can take back what Poland has agreed is Czechoslovakia, unless of course Poland is simply yet again going back on her word.
Babinich 1 | 455
24 May 2011 #110
And we give out alot of money to Poland too....have to invest in our colonies! And we have that money...after all you will be well looked after subjects of Berlin!

How's the forfeiture of money in order to prop up a pipe dream looking to the German people?

When will your leaders get smart and go back to sovereignty?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,552
24 May 2011 #111
When will your leaders get smart and go back to sovereignty?

Why do you think they haven't ! ;)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #112
Big Polish historical blunders were: Invasion of Lithuania after WWI

I wouldn't call it a blunder, given the circumstances and ethnicity of the region itself.

(Harry, please don't even bother. I already know your stance on the matter)

Hmmm...that's why millions of Poles left for better shores?

Our energy is so explosive it can't be limited to our narrow borders LOL
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #113
Lithuania was still a sovereign country though, Koala. Therefore, how can you condone invasion?
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #114
Lithuania entered the battlefield during Polish-Russian war and effectively aided Russians. The area was Polish before the Soviet invasion, Lithuania should have waited with negotiating with Bolsheviks until after the war with Poland was over. They happily claimed that territory, they shouldn't be surprised that we wanted it back.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 May 2011 #115
If possible, you must remember that Catherine II done it with much greater army than Poland could possibly muster for a needed period of time.

Not really, some 50.000 men.]

Lithuania was still a sovereign country though, Koala. Therefore, how can you condone invasion?

Lithuania helped the Soviets, you reap what you sow.

This intelligent guy continues spreading hate against Ukies without any understandable reason.

I'm not spreading hate Antek, i even have a long standing argument with Ironside who thinks Lwów should get back to Poland while i believe f*cking up Ukis is not right, i just think Ukrainians are, as a nation inferior to Poles or for that matter most european nations.

They did not create anything worthwile and they inherited the country built by Russians and Poles.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #116
Remember Silesian Uprisings? Technically speaking, Upper Silesia should have been divided into a number of boroughs belonging to Poland and other boroughs belonging to Germany, if it had to be right. I do not think there were many Poles in villages surrounding Wilno.

Sokrates, I believe Ukies are the same kind of humans as we Polish are. It was Hitler who promoted racial differences which cost life of many Poles.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2011 #117
Try to see it from the Lithuanian perspective. They are separate people who wanted their own land. The Russians helped them in that regard. Where else were they to go, the Soviet Union?

Sok, we both know the answer but why did they help the Soviets? For a love of the Soviets themselves? ;) ;)
Koala 1 | 332
24 May 2011 #118
Lithuanians comprised 5-7% of the total population fo the area. Poles 58%. There were more Belarusians and Jews in the region than Lithuanians. Also, after Polish-Russian war Poland offered to make a plebiscite, which Lithuania refused for obvious reasons.

Try to see it from the Lithuanian perspective. They are separate people who wanted their own land. The Russians helped them in that regard. Where else were they to go, the Soviet Union?

I'm not sure if you're serious. If you're not familiar with the subject, read a bit about it on wikipedia or something. Soviet Union = Russians = Bolsheviks (at the time at least)
Harry
24 May 2011 #119
I wouldn't call it a blunder, given the circumstances and ethnicity of the region itself.

Of course it was a blunder: it told the world that a treaty signed with Poland was not worth the paper it was printed on. That fact was underlined by the 1921 Treaty of Riga (in which Poland backstabbed her Ukrainian allies and sold them to the Soviets) and the 1938 Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia.

But still Poles expected other countries to keep their treaties with Poland and Poles still whine about what they consider to be breaches of those treaties (although I've never met even a single Pole who can explain to me the way in which Britain broke the Anglo-Polish treaty).
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
24 May 2011 #120
Koala, it does neither justify Gen. Zeligowski nor the Polish authorities who knew about that action, and the action was breaking international treaties. What had we got? Enmity of Lithuanians. Nowadays we have no Wilno, and do we suffer because of that?

Technically speaking, we should trade Wrocław for Lwów, too. Are you in? I'm not. Nowadays Wrocław is the purest Polish city.


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