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Poland must get back Lwow, Wilno and Brest back


Vlad1234 16 | 676
7 Jul 2020 #181
In this one thread it wasn't me who proposed Polish-Ukrainian union. It was "dolnoslask".
Crow 139 | 8,170
7 Jul 2020 #182
Polish-Ukrainian union

Or Poland take western (and plus) Ukraine or banderists ie Germany. Because Russia don't wish to take it.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
7 Jul 2020 #183
I don't think any major partition of Ukraine is likely in the nearest 30 years. Especially without a major citizenship war. Western Ukraine didn't attempt to separate even when pro-Russian Yanukovich was in power. And Russia doesn't want take even Donetsk (which would be a huge economic burden for Russia). I cannot imagine scenario when Ukraine will split up farther than Crimea or Donetsk. Neither majority of politicians or common masses want it.
kaprys 3 | 2,415
8 Jul 2020 #184
The idea of Poland uniting with Ukraine just doesn't make sense with Poles still remembering Volhynia and Ukrainians thinking of Polish oppressors.
Is Poland rich enough to support Ukraine economically?
Then we still have the war in Donbas. Ołeksij Nejiżpapa said quite recently that they are preparing for confrontation. Thousands have been killed already.

I really hope for Ukraine and Ukrainians that nothing happens but generally speaking Ukraine has more concerns than Polish sentiments for Lwów.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
8 Jul 2020 #185
Is Poland rich enough to support Ukraine economically?

Europe would pick up the bill .

Poles still remembering Volhynia and Ukrainians thinking of Polish oppressors.

If I am willing to bury the Hatchet then so should they for a better stronger Poland / Ukraine.
Crow 139 | 8,170
8 Jul 2020 #186
I don't think any major partition of Ukraine is likely in the nearest 30 years.

I thought in this direction. But its kind of maximal delay.

In western Ukraine time will work for Poland. In rest, time will work for Russia. Outside of Ukraine situation will also change. Serbia will be stronger and it means Slavic South safe from outside non-Slavic hostile presents, with interests of Poland and Russia in perfect balance, here in the region. EU won`t exist and Visegrad would emerge as unique power. Germany and France would be probably already devastated by internal racial and religious Civil Wars.

See, in that situation, Poland and Russia just shake hands. Ukraine would dissolve naturally and peacefully.

Baltics? Well, with weak Germany, like Ukraine, it would turn to stronger, to Poland and Russia.

When that is over, well, Russia turns to closer ties with Iran (read old Persia) and strengthen further Eurasian Union. At the same time Visegrad around Poland and ``Little Schengen`` (ongoing working title) around Serbia becoming closer and finally merge into Central European Union.

Belarus? It depend.
kaprys 3 | 2,415
8 Jul 2020 #187
@dolnoslask
If I remember well your family was a victim of NKWD, not UPA.
Also even if you are willing to bury the hatchet and think it's a good idea to have a Polish-Ukrainian state, there are some more 80 million Poles and Ukrainians who may think otherwise. I can't speak for Ukrainians but their independence is pretty recent after years of being part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Austrian and Russian empires and the USSR.

Also there's the conflict in Donbas. If we become one country, it's godna be Polish borders being attacked by Russia. I remember when the conflict started, my aunt and uncle were thinking of evacuation to Germany :)

But no one is stopping you from spreading the idea - think of starting a political party, get followers in Poland and Ukraine and who knows?
mafketis 23 | 8,543
8 Jul 2020 #188
Also there's the conflict in Donbas. If we become one country, it's godna be Polish borders being attacked by Russia

And Polish land (Crimea) occupied by Russia and being destroyed by all too typical Russian mismanagement...

Not worth it.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
8 Jul 2020 #189
In western Ukraine time will work for Poland. In rest, time will work for Russia.

Not necessarily. Globally time works against Russia. I would wish it develop socially and economically, but from what I know it doesn't. Demand and prices for hydrocarbons will continue to fall. Western economic sanctions will continue to increase as well. I doubt it will change even in 30 years. Russia will desperately need foreign investments. It wouldn't be able to invest in Ukraine a lot.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
8 Jul 2020 #190
If I remember well your family was a victim of NKWD, not UPA.

You are correct both those groups killed my people, my people is not just my family but my greater Polish family that includes all poles not just in Poland but around the world.

But for clarity , some of my family were left behind after the NKWD only then to suffer at the hands of the UPA.

Don't forget the NKVD were interested in liquidating the intelligentsia , others were left behind , including some of my family

I do recognise that many poles these days only consider and care for themselves and their immediate family , maybe a throwback of commie rule.

my aunt and uncle were thinking of evacuation to Germany :)

I hope you laughed at them lol..
Velund 1 | 399
8 Jul 2020 #191
And Russia doesn't want take even Donetsk (which would be a huge economic burden for Russia).

I think Russia wait till whole Novorussia will be ready to reunite, to get back whole bunch of Russian land given by Lenin to newly created Ukrainian republic for their political reasons.
Ironside 49 | 10,375
8 Jul 2020 #192
Europe would pick up the bill .

lol!

The idea of Poland uniting with Ukraine just doesn't make sense

Absolutely. It doesn't make any sense if we are talking some union. If it comes to some kind of alliance or a pact it would have sense but Ukrainians are really not up to it.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
8 Jul 2020 #193
Is Poland rich enough to support Ukraine economically?

Or administratively.
pawian 171 | 12,080
15 Jul 2020 #194
Vlad - the point is those who want Lviv back are complete fringes of Polish society - it's a non-issue in serious politics in Poland

Yes.
Duda impressed me twice today - he was able to run a casual phone conversation in English (though he heavily stuttered as usual) and secondly, he admitted what gumi has said- the case of Lvov and the whole area of Western Ukraine is non-existent in Polish politics.

Uuff, at least PiS are not nationalist maniacs, thanks God.

youtube.com/watch?v=n6ydnzhMSUU
mafketis 23 | 8,543
15 Jul 2020 #195
he was able to run a casual phone conversation in English

I'm not entirely sure.... I think he was listening to words and trying to cobble together what it could be about rather than actually understanding.

(a common strategy in the non-advanced, I've done it myself)

I'm sure Ironside is disappointed though... no Lviv for him!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #196
no Lviv for him!

Hey its for us who lost it to get it back , I don't see many volunteers from the old exiled Polish expeditionary force wanting to join up and parachute in.
pawian 171 | 12,080
15 Jul 2020 #197
I'm sure Ironside is disappointed though... no Lviv for him!

In this thread, Duda`s comprehension strategies are a piece of cake compared to the message about Lvov. ::)

Iron doesn`t like Duda and PiS, in fact. He only appreciates them for anti LGBT and anti-immigrant stance. The rest is unimportant.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #198
The rest is unimportant.

No need to be so cruel , click on your profile and read your posts , oldest to newest, you will see a Polish patriot.

Go take a look, you might be surprised.
mafketis 23 | 8,543
15 Jul 2020 #199
you will see a Polish patriot

Who carefully stays far away from Poland.... not so impressive.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #200
I was talking about Pawian not Ironside lol,

look lots of people have had to leave Poland to earn corn to feed their family , so what , who has the right sit in judgement given our history.

I'm not being funny but you are not Polish is that correct ?, our history is all about hardship and difficult choices, i'm sure if personal circumstances were different ironside would have wanted to stay with his extended family in Poland, like tens of thousands of others that left due to lack of opportunity for them in Poland .
mafketis 23 | 8,543
15 Jul 2020 #201
, i'm sure if personal circumstances were different ironside would have wanted to stay with his extended family in Polan

what's stopping him now?

you are not Polish is that correct ?,

No, I'm not. I'm American (ancestry mostly German with some Irish, Greek, maybe American Indian, maybe some other stuff). But, I've chosen to live in Poland for a very significant chunk of my life and I don't regret it. And I'm not trying to turn the country into some past fantasy...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,038
15 Jul 2020 #202
Uuff, at least PiS are not nationalist maniacs, thanks God.

Except for playing the German card which for fun :-)

Seriously, no political party in Poland is as crazy as claiming back any of former Poland's borderlands in the east. Not even Konfederacja, I should think.

He only appreciates them for anti LGBT and anti-immigrant stance. The rest is unimportant.

So let's sum it up. No LGBT in Poland, all commies sent to the moon on board of a Tesla machine, immigrants only in Merkel's garden, the 1921 Riga line as an eastern border, the 1945 Oder-Neise line as a western border ... did I miss something?

leave Poland to earn corn to feed their family

So now they should stay where they are and unless they are back again stop shouting at us how we should organize our life in this country.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #203
And I'm not trying to turn the country into some past fantasy...

I don't know what you mean here can you explain, are you talking about past Polish history ? , If so what issues do you have?, I don't understand the past fantasy bit .
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #204
So now they should stay where they are

Ziem this is what the PRL said to my family, It took some time hard work and saving of money to come back here , I hope my brother will be joining me soon, you can be Polish and not live in Poland surely you don't denounce our people simply because they are not in Poland.
mafketis 23 | 8,543
15 Jul 2020 #205
what you mean here can you explain, are you talking about past Polish history

Conservatives are always trying to reshape their country according to a fantasy schema that never really existed*, Progressives are always trying to pave the way for a future that can never exist.

I'm a realist, a country has to deal with the past it actually has (as the past and not something to endlessly obsess over and try to correct) and has to deal with the present as it actually is (and not some fantasy about what it might have been had the past been different) in order to prepare for a future that's possible.

*The first PiS government was trying to recreate a fantasy version of the interwar republic (as they imagined it might have been). The current PiS government is more about recreating the PRL with nationalist and religious slogans instead of communism. Both are dead ends.

Progressives are equally misguided but have no power in the current set up...
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #206
Progressives are equally misguided but have

Both capitalism and communism are imperfect systems , this is known , yea po pis PRL we can talk all night.

But where do you sit as someone who left (at the time) the most powerful economy in the world , what made you come here ?

Still don't know what you mean about fantasy, anyway well done Poland is not the easiest country to make a new life in, bravo you.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,038
15 Jul 2020 #207
you can be Polish and not live in Poland

You DID come back, so you may babble whatever you want on Poland now.
[Btw, I've always admired your decision to come back as it was obviously NOT an easy one]

Stick to the topic of the thread please
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
15 Jul 2020 #208
I've always admired your decision to come back as it was obviously NOT an easy one

Thank you Ziem , It was not easy, and it was tough to begin with (culture shock) , but my wife has always been the first to defend our decision of moving here to Poland. we love it here , and I have no plans of regaining my lost lands in Lwow.

Poland is great fantastic . Pis po whatever..
call1n 2 | 136
16 Jul 2020 #209
I think Poland and Lithuania should be the center of Europe, not the UK and Germany.

Then the Ukraine can be apart of that center, and the Ukrainians should learn Polish.
Crow 139 | 8,170
16 Jul 2020 #210
Poland is lucky that western Europe crumbling. As old people says - Until one does not fall, the other one can`t arise.


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