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Why is there NOTHING (besides Gdansk and Szczecin) in former Prussia?


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 Jan 2011 #61
Well...I doubt the USians deny the mexican past of Texas and California...
I wonder who needs to get over "it"! Is it still to raw for you? To insecure with your current borders that you have to deny the rich and long german past in your new territories?

Quoting doen't make shallowness better. Let's hear some of your personal impresions?
Ever been to Poland? Ever?

Oh please, who asked the cevabcici for it's opinion? Shouldn't you go play elsewhere?

What do you have to do with german matters? I tell you: Nothing!
Marynka11 4 | 675
5 Jan 2011 #62
Not quite because I'm not saying that Danzig belongs to Germany now, do I?

What are you saying exactly by this language story? That it's not a historically Polish city?

o insecure with your current borders that you have to deny the rich and long german past in your new territories?

Little over 100 years is not that long. And I don't deny it.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
5 Jan 2011 #63
guesswho:
That's why I always say, you can drink and have all kinds of fun with Poles but never discuss with them about history. That's an absolute no no, :-)

Depends highly on the arrogance with which you present yourself. Your's completely out of place Mädchen.

The reason you get that impression of Poles and history, is because you believe your version of history is true and theirs isn't. America, Britain think they "saved us" that we lost in September in a few weeks attacking tanks with horses and sabers, and that's it. If people knew that Polish Armed Forces were 4th largest after Soviet Union, US, and Britain, and did more than some French, battle of Britain, Normandy, Monte Casino, Berlin, Pomerania and that the west betrayed us [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal] maybe just maybe they'd see that we're right about how history went about. And Poles know fully well all the west did or tried to do for Poland, but what it didn't do or didn't try is much more.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 Jan 2011 #64
What are you saying exactly by this language story? That it's not a historically Polish city?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk

In the 1st century AD, a new culture appeared in the area, called Willenberg-Kultur or now Wielbark culture. This culture is widely identified as the Gothiscandza (or Coast of the Goths) that was mentioned by Jordanes in the 6th century.

The Free City of Danzig issued its own stamps and currency (the Gulden). Many examples of stamps and coins, bearing the legend Freie Stadt Danzig, survive in collections. There was a strong desire to rescind the Allied Powers' decision on the status of the city's 400,000 citizens which were predominantly German.

At the last census the Poles made exactly 2 percent of the town...98 percent Germans!

From Germanic to Germans during 2000 years! Danzig is polish now but would you please refrain from falsifying history as if Germans had been only a short interlude in an otherwise pure polish town? Thank you very much!
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
5 Jan 2011 #65
you get the Tricity, the coastline, and the next post of civilisation is... Warsaw.

Care to explain yourself? I lived in Ełk (Mazury) for over ten years and never experienced the desert conditions you are talking about. Have you seriously never been to northern Poland? Yeah, come to think of it, one thing is hard to come by in north-east Poland: heavy industry. I never complained.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
5 Jan 2011 #66
What are you saying exactly by this language story? That it's not a historically Polish city?

Think for a second Marynka, in Poland people speak Polish, right? I leave the rest of it to your imagination.
There's one thing however I feel like I have to mention at this point, my sympathy for Poles (I like most of you) has nothing to do with my view about the past history of Danzig.

As I said earlier, you can have a great time with Poles as long as you avoid talking about the history of Poland and Germany (especially those two).
sascha 1 | 826
5 Jan 2011 #67
And Poles know fully well all the west did or tried to do for Poland, but what it didn't do or didn't try is much more.

That was also my experience, especially coming there as a German...and on top of that talking business with them. I still have good friends there. Slavic people, also Poles, can forgive, maybe, but not forget. That's o.k. by me. It's what you learn from the past...

The picture probably most Poles of the West have is not so good, but as I said, if you are open minded trying to understand both sides of the story, the vodka will run all evening long :-))
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 Jan 2011 #68
As I said earlier, you can have a great time with Poles as long as you avoid talking about the history.

Yeah...the given german lands are still a raw point with many of them. They know only one defense - attacking any claim Germans could made, even with denying facts, falsifying history or lying!

It isn't the Germans who need to go over "it" !
Marynka11 4 | 675
5 Jan 2011 #69
think for second Marynka, in Poland people speak Polish, right?

Guesswho, like I said, but that logic, the only language spoken in California should be English. You are contradicting yourself.

Gdansk is a strategically important city and I see why the Prussians, Kreuzritter and others had constant interest in it. But it's longest history is Polish and no one can deny it.
Torq
5 Jan 2011 #70
the given german lands are still a raw point with many of them
(...) attacking any claim Germans could made

Are Germans making any claims? That's new to me. Any links to support that?

We haven't heard about any demands from Germany (well, not since 1939 we haven't.)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 Jan 2011 #71
Are Germans making any claims? That's new to me. Any links to support that?

Alone talking about the german past in these lands and towns is seen as attack by some of your folks.

Sensitive already when Germans call the towns by their german names...calling the people living there for centuries as occupiers or Nazis....as they were expelled "going home to the fatherland", etc.

It's all here to see!

There aren't any claims from Germany...beside not to deny our common past!
guesswho 4 | 1,289
5 Jan 2011 #72
You are contradicting yourself.

No I am not. I don't say that Danzig belongs to Germany now.
Btw. When I was in Poland and visited Danzig, I was still meeting people who spoke German and told me that they are Germans, just couldn't leave Danzig right after the war because they were too young and all or most of their family members died during the war. Later, when they became old enough to get out, Poland was still a part of the Eastern Block and it was almost impossible to leave and after 1989 when it was possible, they were too old to leave.
Marynka11 4 | 675
5 Jan 2011 #73
In fact the simple Prussian folks suffered a lot because of the political shifts, and it can't be denied. My mother-in-law is from East Prussia. They have lost their farm and everything they had overnight, were put on some train that went for days and days and she and her 6 brothers and sisters got barely any food or drink, and once they got to Germany the were considered some sort of pest that was send there to compete for the already sparse food supplies.

Versöhnung is a good thing.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
5 Jan 2011 #74
Versöhnung is a good thing.

How can you reconcile with someone who denies your heritage?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
5 Jan 2011 #75
very nice post Marynka :-)

How can you reconcile with someone who denies your heritage?

at least Marynka is trying to be nice. It's a great start.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
5 Jan 2011 #76
The picture probably most Poles of the West have is not so good, but as I said, if you are open minded trying to understand both sides of the story, the vodka will run all evening long :-))

As people in in the West have of the East. Poles know history very well it's just others believe wholeheartedly that their version is correct and don't wanna listen to what Poles say. That's ignorance and arrogance as you said yourself.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
5 Jan 2011 #77
I do listen to you guys, I just tend to disagree with your way of seeing history. Don't forget Penn that different countries teach different history.

I have to dismiss the case of ignorance or arrogance in this case since following a different way of understanding history doesn't make one ignorant or arrogant.

You know better that I don't have any problems with Poles Penn, it's just that we don't always have to agree to everything, right? Usually that's what friendship is about, to be able to talk openly about everything even if it's not always a goodie-goodie situation.

A real friend will tell you the truth even if you don't like it but at least you know, he's honest with you.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
5 Jan 2011 #78
As I said earlier, you can have a great time with Poles as long as you avoid talking about the history of Poland and Germany (especially those two).

Would you care to elaborate, what exactly happens when you start talking history with them 'especially about those two'?
Ironside 50 | 10,907
6 Jan 2011 #79
and the population was mainly ...% ???

polish????

I wonder who needs to get over "it"! Is it still to raw for you? To insecure

stop projecting your feelings .....who flipped over a picture ?

From Germanic to Germans during 2000 years! Danzig is polish

Those theories from 30' are still about ? How do you determinate that people living in those lands were Germanic by helmets or by buttons ?Hell, then some future archaeologists will come to the conclusion then Poland were populated by Americans, taken amount of jeans buttons !

What-more Gdansk was founded by polish prince Mieszko as a means of securing HIS harbor on the Baltic Sea! So, any Germanic would be just newcomers or immigrants in the city !

I leave the rest of it to your imagination.

Well, thats what you do, talking about history, as for links .....you can find anything really on the INTERNET and links are in no way gospel or kernel of the truth !

What I try to say, everybody can discus history, in the same way everybody can discus illnesses, but when need arise, you turn to professionals to keep you in the right !

In fact the simple Prussian folks suffered a lot because of the political shifts, and it can't be denied.

Yeah, soviet regime in Poland liked to divide people, if in place was a real polish government I dare say that many simple folks would be allowed to stay !

Specially in the east Prussia !
Gdansk after WWII:
...
Gdansk today:





the old royal city(unanswerable to the King of Poland in case somebody harbor any doubts ):

One more thing about those lands.
I personally know an family (wont give their name for a obvious reason)was living continuously there, before as Germanic knights, latter as Polish nobles, and now as Poles.

I know about one family (I'm sorry that at the time I did not investigate), but I suspect that there is many more.
That about individuals fate and choices, when it comes to country's then everything is pretty straightforward, Poland holds moral rights to those lands and that is that !
gumishu 11 | 5,629
2 Mar 2011 #80
West Prussia (Westpreussen) with the Hanseatic cities of Danzig, Elbing, Thorn, and Culm, part of Poland referred to as Polish Prussia before 1772."

it may have been called Royal Prussia (Prusy Królewskie) but it doesn't change the fact that most of its inhabitants were Slavic Polish or Kashubian - only the cities had German majority and even not all of them (I doubt Toruń/Thorn had German majority in 1701) - all of the lands of Royal Prussia (West Preussen is a German term and was not used before 1772) west of Vistula had a Slavic population in historic times (ie times of written records) - Prussians (a Baltic tribe(s) used to live east of the lower Vistula but in historic times they were constantly pressed east and north by Poles - one of the Piast rulers of Masovia made a grave mistake to invite the Teutonic Knights to press the Prussians even further )


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