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Maus by Vladek Spiegelman - animals to represent Poles?


Harry
1 Nov 2010 #31
You might make some pretty colors.

My God! I agree with every single word that Bzibzioh said! How the hell did that happen?!
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #32
In the usual Polish fashion many of You guys fail to acknowledge that apart from a significant number of brave and heroic Poles that did all they could to ease the plight of Jews at great personal risk there was also a very visible chunk of the Polish population that sold Jews out to the Nazis for food or out of spite.

In the usual Jewish fashion, You have been fed that only Poles turned in hiding Jews, and also passed death sentences on the Poles who were hiding the Jews. This happened, we know that mostly criminal element profited during the war. This picture is incomplete. What it is missing is the biggest threat to hiding Jews - collaborating Jews. In Warsaw, there was a large network of Jews working directly for Gestapo. What do you think they did besides ripping off fellow Jews, and exposing Jewish and Polish resistance organizations. How deadly certain Jews could be to the Jewish community you should study the case of Stella Kübler in Berlin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_K%C3%BCbler

In Poland, Gestapo was much better organized. Thousands of Jews worked for Gestapo, but you will not see movies about that.
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #33
In the usual Jewish fashion, You have been fed that only Poles turned in hiding Jews, and also passed death sentences on the Poles who were hiding the Jews.

I don't think that I have ever before read anywhere any statement that Poles passed death sentences on other Poles who were hiding Jews. As you say such statements are "the usual Jewish fashion", could you perhaps quote a few examples of Jews making such statements? Or even post a single example of anybody anywhere (other than you) making such statements. I mean, it is a well known fact that some non-Jewish Poles did murder Jews during the war, but did they really ever murder Poles who were hiding Jews?!

Thousands of Jews worked for Gestapo, but you will not see movies about that.

I guess I must have imagined the scenes in the Pianist showing Jews working with the Nazis. All those shots of Jews herding other Jews into the train to Treblinka. And the line " More Jewish police? You mean you want me to wear a cap like yours, beat up Jews with my truncheon and catch the Gestapo spirit.", I must have imagined that too.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #34
I don't think that I have ever before read anywhere any statement that Poles passed death sentences on other Poles who were hiding Jews

Pole or Jew, when he turned in Poles hiding Jews, he often passed a death sentence on the whole Polish family. I think we all agree on that.

I guess I must have imagined the scenes in the Pianist showing Jews working with the Nazis.

Would you say that is the first one out of hundreds holocaust movies that shows Jews as eager participants in the Holocaust? The Jewish police often exceeded the Nazi quotas so they could plunder their victim's homes.
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #35
Pole or Jew, when he turned in Poles hiding Jews, he often passed a death sentence on the whole Polish family. I think we all agree on that.

The men of Police Battalion 101 wouldn't agree on that. But what do they know? They only killed thousands of Jews.

Would you say that is the first one out of hundreds holocaust movies that shows Jews as eager participants in the Holocaust?

I haven't seen hundreds of holocaust movies. Have you?

The Jewish police often exceeded the Nazi quotas so they could plunder their victim's homes.

You mean Jews can be complete and utter bastards too? Who would have thought it!
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #36
The men of Police Battalion 101 wouldn't agree on that. But what do they know? They only killed thousands of Jews.

You mean German soldiers would not agree with German law?

You mean Jews can be complete and utter bastards too? Who would have thought it!

In Glorious Bastards Jewish fighters committing war crimes is celebrated as the noblest of deeds. A smashing hit!
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #37
You mean German soldiers would not agree with German law?

Read their statements for yourself and you'll soon learn how often entire Polish families were killed for hiding Jews.

Actually, you don't happen to have a source for the statement about German law and death sentences on whole Polish families do you? I've never heard of any such law before.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #38
I've never heard of any such law before.

What have you heard then? That Poles were discouraged from hiding Jews?

d

"GENERAL NOTICE
W.r.t.: Capital punishment for support to Jews, who have left the jewish settlement without authorisation.
Of late numerous Jews have departed from the designated Jewish living district. They are as yet delayed in the District of Warsaw. I point your attention thereto, that by the third Decree of the Governor General concerning settlement allocation of the General Government (VBl. GG. S. 595) of 15.10.1941,not only the Jews who in this way, departed unauthorised from their allocated living district, will receive capital punishment, but that the same punishment awaits those, who knowingly aid such Jews by harbouring them. [...]"

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Afisz-kara_śmierci_za_pomoc_Żydom.jpg
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #39
What have you heard then?

I've heard of the order which you reproduce above. I was asking about the German law which imposed death sentences on whole Polish families for hiding Jews. The one which you say that we all agree on. Could it be that you were being less than truthful about that law?
Paulina 13 | 3,329
3 Nov 2010 #40
I've never heard of any such law before.

Are you serious???

treblinka.bho.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=77&Itemid=71

"Pomoc Żydom, nie ograniczała się tylko do żywności, ubrań, lekarstw ale też do ukrywania w miejscach bezpiecznych. To właśnie ten rodzaj pomocy, był obarczony olbrzymim ryzykiem. W przypadku ukrywania Żydów każdej osobie oraz jego rodzinie groziła kara śmierci. Nie było mowy o jakimkolwiek sądzie, znalezienie ukrywanych Żydów oznaczało egzekucję całej rodziny. Jedna z takich historii wydarzyła się we wsi Dąbrowa."
smurf 39 | 1,981
3 Nov 2010 #41
I was thinking an Eagle, since (for me at least) it's associated with bravery (risking life to save Jewish neighbours) and pride (proud of being Polish). I also thought bear, because they are a survival animal (Poland survived for 123 yrs without a country during partitions)

Did you just come across it, or did you actually bother to read it?
If you did actually bother to read it then you'd know why the Poles are illustrated as pigs.

Troll question if ever there was a troll question
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #42
I was asking about the German law which imposed death sentences on whole Polish families for hiding Jews.

Playing the idiot again? From the law:

will receive capital punishment, but that the same punishment awaits those, who knowingly aid such Jews by harbouring them.

Your arguments is probably: What if a single person, living alone, was hiding a Jew? The Germans couldn't have executed the his whole family, because he didn't have one. You got me there, I must admitt. You are good at this,Harry.
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #43
You are good at this,Harry.

And you are particularly good at lying about Jews. I see that you can not link to the supposed German law which has a death sentence for entire families of Poles, just as you can not link to any Lithuanian rules banning speaking of Polish between school lessons. But just as there (and with your lies about Jewish military units), you clearly aren't going to let truth get in the way!
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #44
I see that you can not link to the supposed German law which has a death sentence for entire families of Poles,

I posted the law in German, Polish, and even so you can read it - in English.

will receive capital punishment, but that the same punishment awaits those, who knowingly aid such Jews by harbouring them.

The Germans meant it:

3. AFTYKA, Józef, 54, living in Wola Przybys³awska, near Garbów, Lublin prov.
4. AFTYKA, Aniela, 52, Józef's wife

5. AFTYKA, Marianna, 14, daughter

6. AFTYKA, Zofia, 17, daughter

murdered by Germans on Dec. 10, 1942 together with a group of Jews sheltered by them and with W³adys³aw Abramek. On the same day Czes³aw and Leonard Gawron from the same village were also killed together with Aniela and Stanis³aw Kamiñski, 5 members of the Nalewjka family and 5 others of the Ochmiñski family - a total of 19 people (see: 1, 137-138, 209- 210, 390-391, 411)

Here is more: holocaustforgotten.com/list.htm
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #45
I posted the law in German, Polish, and even so you can read it - in English.

a) That isn't a law.
b) It says nothing about executing entire families.

Not that any of this matters, the statements of men from Police Battalion 101 show what the reality was.
Paulina 13 | 3,329
3 Nov 2010 #46
a) That isn't a law.
b) It says nothing about executing entire families.

But entire families were executed for hiding Jews. That's a fact. Apparently this is how the Nazis interpreted this law about helping Jews. Such was the "law" in the Nazi occupied Poland. Mass executions without a trial, pacification operations - burning down entire villages and killing their inhabitants for helping the Polish resistance troops, killing entire families for helping Jews.

So what do you say to that?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_operations_in_German-occupied_Poland

Not that any of this matters

Really? All those people who died with their families for helping Jews don't matter? Interesting...
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #47
a) That isn't a law.

Oh really, you mean the German people didn't vote on it in a referendum? Why did they post it? To amuse people?

b) It says nothing about executing entire families.

But whole Polish families were executed.

You might have some mental problems to keep argueing about this. lol
Harry
3 Nov 2010 #48
Really? All those people who died with their families for helping Jews don't matter? Interesting...

Nice attempt to put words into my mouth. Such a pity that my full quote shows how pathetic an effort it is. Can you really not do any better?!

But whole Polish families were executed.

I entirely agree. My point was that that did not happen "often" as you claimed and that the statements of Police Battalion 101 show that to be the case.
zetigrek
3 Nov 2010 #49
Nice attempt to put words into my mouth.

You do it, Harry, many times... actually as an objective observer I must admit that you are a king of manipulation.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #50
I entirely agree. My point was that that did not happen "often" as you claimed and that the statements of Police Battalion 101 show that to be the case.

If you are dying to quote some German soldier, do it, man. Don't play the coy virgin. You know you have the quote ready, it's sensational, and it obligatorily has something to put Poles in bad light. Do it. After all, that's what you're here for.
Paulina 13 | 3,329
3 Nov 2010 #51
Nice attempt to put words into my mouth.

I don't do such things, you're far better at demagogy and twisting things to your liking.
I am honestly curious what you meant.

Such a pity that my full quote shows how pathetic an effort it is.

And how the second part of your sentence changes the meaning of the first part? Can you explain?

Can you really not do any better?!

No, I can't compete with you, sorry :)

You do it, Harry, many times... actually as an objective observer I must admit that you are a king of manipulation.

Indeed.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Nov 2010 #52
Read the comic, its anti-Polish allright.
Maybe 12 | 409
9 Nov 2010 #53
What animal do you think Poles should have been represented as?

A Platypus, cause it doesn't know wtf it is?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Nov 2010 #54
Buddy you're a stupid person who accidentally made one awesomely smart comment, that one is for the books.
Maybe 12 | 409
9 Nov 2010 #55
thank you for acknowledging my stupidity, Socrates.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
9 Nov 2010 #56
You're welcome citizen.
Maybe 12 | 409
9 Nov 2010 #57
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

Would you not agree?

Socrates was a wiseguy who f*cked toddlers and had a fugly wife, i just like his name not his views.

ah ha...I see thanks for the update...
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
11 Nov 2010 #58
What it is missing is the biggest threat to hiding Jews - collaborating Jews. In Warsaw, there was a large network of Jews working directly for Gestapo

Jews collaborated with Germans not only in Poland, but in Germany also...Many Nazis were part Jewish, top ones, who gave orders...The most blatantly obvious example of collaboration can be found in the book 'The Transfer Agreement'...Hitler, and the Nazi leadership say the founding of the state of Israel as the creation of an ally in the Mid-East...Both the Nazis and Zionists shared a dream that each nation would be 'racially pure' and, when this was achieved, there would be no reason not to collaborate.

To illustrate this point, the 'Mustafa' or Islamic leader of Jerusalem spent the better part of a year in Berlin trying to convince Hitler to ally with Palestinians and other Arabs to create a Middle Eastern ally for the Reich...The 'Mustafa' was, in fact, Yassar Arafat's uncle...Hitler let him cool his heels, then told him flatly 'no way'...This because the Germans wanted a Jews only state in Palestine...The Jews were to be their ally against British control in Middle East...When Rommel lost at El Alamein in North Africa, this dream was put to rest, since Germans no longer had chance of controlling Suez Canal, thereby controlling the Levant.
krakowiak
16 Dec 2010 #59
The comic is a good read, it's a personal story and we should not be insulted, just because an old man who went through a lot in his life disliked our glorious nation.

The animal I would like Poles to see portrayed as is the cow. Beeing milked by the jewish rats fot centuries, just a personal biased oppinion ;)

(spoilers)

I don't buy Art that he did use the pig character in good will to portray Poles positively, mentioning Miss Piggy as a positive role model. As I see it, Vladek disliked Poles and Art just doesn't want to addmit it.

The whole comic is told as a personal story of Vladek. The only Pole beeing portrayed completly positively is the priest in Auschwitz who is called to be "he wasn't jewish, but very intelligent". So even the characterization of the only completly positively portrayed Pole can be seen as insulting the rest.

On the other hand for example he did portray the jews as they were too maybe without euphemize but maybe unknowing that it puts them in bad light as cowardly characters who did not support their country. At least those Vladek belonged to did not identify themselfes as Poles but as jews first, they used tricks to stay away from army conscription. Vladek even did not shoot at the Germans when the war broke out until he was ordered by an officer to do so.

So why was it like that? Because christian Poles did not accept jewish neighbours? Thats why the jews kept to themselfes? Or did the jews think of themselfes as the chosen people? Or some of that and some of that?
Harry
16 Dec 2010 #60
the cow. Beeing milked by the jewish rats

Interesting that you are so unintelligent you think that rats are able to milk a cow, such retardation goes a long way to explaining your anti-semitism.


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