WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed

I agree... when compared to the purges committed by Stalin against his own people, or the NAZIs against the Jews. Sheer numbers, yes Katyń is very small and inconsequential, by sheer nuymbers only - certainly not the injustice or outcome of the act.

Again, some good comments on this thread. However, I am curious... and this question is directed to the Russians/ex-Soviets here.... do you acknowledge the purges committed by the Cheka, NKVD, and KGB under Lenin, Stalin and Kruschev (spelling)? Those ~32 million people who were murdered for the good of the CCCP's political gains, was it genocide or just an inconvenience for the Soviet government?

H

Actually, this IS from wikipedia. I read this passage numerous times (referring to the 3rd conference). Now the article does not have the passage. Wonder why.

Hitler had ordered his troops to: "Kill without mercy every man, woman, and child of Polish extraction." So, unless Adolph had the notion the notion that the Polish Army was full of women and children, he had to be referring to the deliberate genocide of Polish civilians.

Soviets were co-operating with Germans before the war broke out. Would you suggest the Soviets dii their best to stop Hitler from the genocide of Poles and jeopardize the cozy relation they thought they had with the Nazis?

Any totalitarian government attempting to get a nation under its control will always start with the leaders of that nation - the intelligentsia and the military.

Probably because it was not supported by sources.

R J Rummel, who about 15 years ago coined the term "democide," which is kind of the political scientist's catch-all for anything death related. Under his definition, the Soviets committed democide against the Poles.

Since a few of you folks cite Wikipedia as a source... look it up there.

Henry.

I linked that before, Henry. Maybe back in page 4 or 5 of the thread. He also cites politicide and other things.

Why must I understand this in this scenario? Whose act and whose guilty mind? I'm no criminal law expert, but I wasn't aware that common law notions of guilt finding applied to what I thought were code law jurisdictions. How do these apply to a nation cf an individual? Do you mean Stalin per se? What about similar fact evidence?


I haven't said Katyn wasn't mass murder. What I said was that in my view it was the precursor to what was to come, regardless of class, had the Nazis and Soviets remained allies. I thought my proposition was fairly clear and I honestly can't explain it in any clearer terms.


There's no need to profess indignation friend. If you can't understand what's being argued, then ask for clarification and we'd be more than happy to oblige.

Could you give us a source for that passage? I couldn't find it anywhere. The neat thing is you can look through the revisions... Didn't manage to find any source to that whatsoever.

Comeon man, you've got to have something better than a quote that came from an American reporter. Something that wasn't included in the evidence at Nuremberg because it couldn't be backed up by anything.

Generalplan Ost called for Poles to be deported to Siberia. I believe the crazy little Austrian wrote about it while he was in jail as well.

Weren't they executed because they were Polish intellectuals or was it because they were intellectuals living in Poland? :)

Considering that they did the exact same thing when they came to power 20 years earlier, I would say they just weren't too fond of a certain class of people...Especially people that would form the core of any resistance to the new bosses. G'night

Were intellectuals from other countries executed in the same way? Therein lies your answer.

Still i consider it a genocide, it forever changed Poland!!! The Poland that was before that died...

one source here, and here, and here,
and here jstor.org/pss/29733695.
Do you need more?

G'day mate - thanks for the links - interesting reading. The last sentence of the 3rd paragrah at p.16 of your second link seems to vindicate your position. I think some people here aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

For a good 'body count' of Communism in general, here is a good read:





Germans Unearth Katyn Grave

Hi der,

I am an Indian national.
I want to know why Katyn massacre happened??
What is the motive behind murdering Poles by soviets??

& i pray for all those poles army personnel & civilians died in katyn & ww2, may der soul rest in peace.

Thnxs

Sourabh

in itself its a war crime,
but it was surely a part of a larger genocide in Kresy?

the De-Polonisation of cities like Lvov & Grodno was genocide/ethnic cleansing, and Katyn was surely part of that (as well as an attempt to weaken a future Polish state). combined with the deportations to Kazakhstan you could make a pretty good genocide case IMO

Hi Sourabh,

As for why it happened: i'm sure others will write this better, but part of it was the fact that Stalin was humiliated by Polish Military Genius in the 1919-1920 war and had not forgotten.

also the Soviet Government never accepted the loss of the Russian Empires Western Territories which became independant in 1918, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia & Finland.

so the USSR signed a pact with Nazi Germany that gave the USSR the Baltic states, Finland and Poland east of the Curzon line. 14 days after the Nazis Invaded Poland from the West , the USSR invaded from the East.

the USSR rounded up anyone who might have been able to lead a future Polish state and deported, imprisoned or Executed them.

Agree with that war crime and setup for genocide of Poles in east and after the ww2 creating police state in all Poland.
Also the Polish allies did not help and they use Poles in their world dominance game.

Why does the OP exhibit such ridiculous undertones and questions?
Genocide - do we have to retrace history on polishforums? And yes, there was genocide in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia inflicted by Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians. Study your history on Banja Luka, Srebrenica and Gorazde, too.

Regards
John

What would you suggest we discuss in the History section of this forum, regional dishes?

YES,,

heres an interesting angle on it,
the campaign to restore Konigsberg is citing Kalinins part in Katyn
kaliningrad-eu.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=17

i can't see how to sign the petition however

Helo people, I am new here. I have been living in Australia for 14 years, but I was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina actually it was still Yugoslavia then, and I am Croat.

Now, my hobby is history. And don't take anything as granted, because in my old country, Hitory was full of lies and fake claims because of nationalists so called historians who always try to accuse other natinalities and glorify their own.

Katyn is one reason I came to this forum. Because I want to ask you something.

In my opinion all that story has many weird things and does not sound very logic to me. And to me does not make any sense. I know that NKVD is blamed for Katyn Massacre and personally Stalin and Beria. Gorbachev anounced three document that are apparently evidence that NKVD commited that crime.

Now, there are very serious claims that those documents are fake. Why would somebody in Russia make fake documents about Katyn, I don't know and I am not an expert for soviet documents.

But I noticed another thing that have nothing in common with elementary logic. Official version is that Katyn masasacre is commited in April and May of 1940. This is accepted as historical fact.

Another fact is that victims were killed by german guns - Walther. Also they had hands tied with ropes of german manufacturer.

So why would NKVD use a german guns? What for? Some said that the are more silent. That is stupid explanation, does not make sence. If they wanted more silence, they would have found some different method and they would not have taken them deep in the forest.

The main explanation for use of german weapons is that Soviets wanted Germans to be accused for that crime. And here we are in the biggest problem.

Because, what Germans are we talking about.? It is year 1940, Germans are far far away from KAtyn, behind the USSR border, and Katyn is deep in Soviet teritory. Germans and Soviets are still not in the war and nobody know if the war between them would start sooner, or later, or never. So Soviets were able to predict future like Nostradamus, to know that Germas would attack, also they knew that Germans would take over Smolensk region with Katyn forest as well, and already in early 1940 they kill Poles in KAtyn with german Walther guns to set German nazis up and to put blame on them.

This is ridiculous! And stupid. And I don't Know how nobody pay attention on this, especially Russians.

I cannot claim anything, but personally I think that today Russian communists' claims are right in this case and that German nazis commited this crime, because they had more motivations to do that. And I cannot understand why russian officials don't put this thing under the investigation again.

And it is very strange thing that all of us take for granted Goebbels's version of this event. Come on, to trust Goebbels, please ...

For comfort.I remember seeing a doc or reading about Katyn and the killers received Walther pistols because it has much lesser recoil than Nagant.It would tire them to much to shoot 22000 with Nagants.

The Russians have admitted they were responsible, there is no debate about it.

The Poles are far from being blameless.

Nobody is I'd say, especially in war time.

youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BaeyKKkMM&feature=youtu.be

trailer of an Animated documentary movie about crimes against Polish Nation during II World War.