WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed

And only a few posts ago in the same thread you said there was no war with Soviet Union? Now you agree a war in fact did exist! Ha!

You also said Poland issued a declaration of war against Germany when in fact no such declaration was issued (only a state of emergency and martial law) so in neither case war was formally declared between Poland and USSR or Poland and Germany! When plainly there was see you even agree with me:


No moving this absurdity along, you remark that if this was the case then Poland would still be at war with Russia as the successor to USSR as no peace treaty was signed? So please enlighten me when exactly was the peace treaty signed between defeated Germany and Poland? Nope there wasn't one so Poland must still be at war with Germany. Ha!

* * * *

But I think I know what the underlying issue is all about. It seems to me that some Poles would very much like to use the term genocide by USSR during WWII to further try and compare the tragedy that befell the non-Jews of Poland to that of the Polish Jews, and there are many posts that try to equate the Polish suffering in the same terms as the Holocaust that was suffered by the Jews —when it was no such thing. It was a horrific tragedy of course for all and it was to my own family living in Poland during that time, but it was not the Holocaust as suffered by the Jews.

I have read many attempts by some Poles to imply that of the six million Poles that were exterminated by the Germans half of these were non- Jews so the scale of the catastrophe was the same for both when it clearly was not.

For the Jews this represented let us say 80-90% of the entire Polish Jewish population whereas the 2.5 million killed from a pre-war population of what, 15-20 million (?) non-Jews does not represent a similar catastrophe at all. Of course it is a catastrophe nonetheless.

Maybe this desire to be included in the Holocaust is just an outward expression or reaction for the lack of world recognition of the suffering of Poles during WWII, and IMO that is a valid claim., but so it is for the millions of Soviet men and women that also perished in German camps and by executions. For seventy years the Jewish Holocaust has been the dominant expression of the horror of WWII, and deservedly so, but it was not the only horror (or voice) of WWII and this is what is sometimes lost. I believe this is at the heart of the issue and why some cannot accept that Katyń is simple a war crime—it simply has to be more than that as it means more than that to many Poles, but that reason alone does not change a war-crime into genocide.

ps. My pal Putin sends his love to Poland ;-)

Really - it takes a lot of bad will not to see that from the very start I was talking about
the time of Katyń genocide. In my very first post in this thread I asked:


There was no war obviously because all military operations between Polish and Soviet
regular forces ended in September 1939 (as opposed to the situation with Polish and
German regular forces which fought each other until May 1945).


Erm... no - I never said that Poland "declared a war" against Germany I only said that
the state of war was proclaimed by Polish authorities which was a translation mistake
on my part ("stan wojenny" should indeed be translated as martial law, not as "state
of war" as you pointed out).


That's YOUR logic not mine. In my opinion the factual (but not declared) state of war
between Poland and Soviet Union ended in September 1939, so it was long time over
in April 1940. After September 1939 neither Soviet nor Polish governments considered
to be at war with the other side and no Polish regular forces fought Soviet regular
forces.


Again - there was no peace treaty, so following YOUR logic not mine, Poland must
still be at war with Germany, because in my opinion war against Germany ended
with the end of military operations in May 1945, just as I said in my previous post...


So, seeing as you're not trying to honestly discuss the question, but keep twisting
my words and showing a lot of bad will, I see no point in debating with you further.

I guess I will have to accept that in your funny little world Katyń will remain a war
crime.


You're not Putin's pal. You're his lackey. That's a huge difference.

He might reward you one day though, so maybe you will get the medal you dream of.

You been to Kock, boy? I have. I know who the Polish army were fighting there & then. Whatever. You feel free to call the Polish army cowards, boy. I know that they were still fighting.

Your knowledge of history is as laughable as your knowledge of international law!!!

They were fighting the Germans, Harry :-)


When did I call Polish army cowards and what are you on about anyway?

I have a feeling that your complete inability to read with understanding
played a major part in your making the above post :-)

I said that the clashes between regular Polish and Soviet forces ended
in September 1939 (not between Polish and German forces).


Not as laughable as your reading comprehension.

was there war between Russia and Ukraine when Stalin starve 20 mil. ukrainins to dead ?
was there war between Russia and Poland after 1945 where NKVD shipped Poles to Siberia
and kill inosent people base they ware Poles?
ware ther war between Ukrainians and Poland where U.P. mordered Polish population and then A.K. mordered ukrainian population ?
was there war between American Indians and U.S where millions Indians got just killed because there ware there and some ware stuffed like animals to be displayed in museum.

war has noting to do with genocide, it happens just because you are Pole, Ukrainian, Jew, Gypsies , and you might just take advantage of a war but war is not necessity to commit genocide

Katyn was certainly not a genocide. It was a war crime but not genocide. I don't know why we want to blame Russians so much. Stalin was NOT Russian and he killed many more Russians than Poles. I think the church is partly responsible for making us believe Eastern Slavs are the enemy. All for protecting the Western Christianity branch that Vatican still controls.

Wolyn was certainly a genocide. But how many Poles know about it? I don't live in Poland so I can't verify it, but I doubt that Wolyn is in our history books. My chaplain was very vocal about Katyn but never said anything about Wolyn or Bieszczady. Are the 600,000 Poles that were murdered by Ukrainians less important than the officers and priests executed at Katyn and Ostaszkowo? Or are we running into a problem of killers being Catholic/Ukrainian Catholic vs Orthodox?

I guess we will have to accept that some Poles need Katyń to be genocide rather than a war-crime for all the reasons I have given earlier.


Don't forget we have your I.P. address :-)))))


That they were Poles was irrelevant to NKVD; those tortured, executed or deported by NKVD to USSR were deemed enemies or threats to the take over and imposition of communist control of Poland. It was only natural that those victims were Polish as they were in Poland which the Soviets wanted to impose communist rule. Simply that.

Now I lost all respect for you. In our previous discussion you seemed to be at least trying to be objective but here you are just being an offensive *******.

If that is how you want to speak then I'll speak to you in your own words:
"Jews" DID NOT suffer more than "Poles".
In fact, "Jews" did not suffer more or less that anybody.
Wanna know why? Because not all Jews went through the same experience.

Let me explain: I got interested in events in Wolyn a few months back and started reading survivors' accounts. One man recalled how he, as a ten year old boy, survived a massacre only because pieces of his mother's brain covered a side of his face. He was lying down next to the bodies of his family mambers and other Poles from his village and since he was not moving and covered in brain tissue the Ukrainians thought that he was dead so they didn't finish him off. But he didn't know whether they're still around so he had to lay there until the evening came and then go into the forest. He had to get out of Wolyn somehow, walking for weeks through the forest in an unknown direction, unable to ask for help because the majority of Poles were either dead or fled and he couldn't ask a Ukrainian for help since he didn't know who would help him and who would kill him. Even as he made it to relative safety, it's not like he had anywhere to go, it's not like random stragers would take him in and care for him.

Call me an antisemite but in my opinion this boy suffered MUCH MORE than, let's say - a blond Jewish child who passed as a Pole, taken care of by a Polish family. That kind of child surely suffered fear and sadness for the loss of their family, but if you seriously claim that it was worse than crawling through the forest in the middle of the night covered in your mother's brain tissue then perhaps it is you who should be 'put to prison' for that.

I have to agree here with Adam Michnik, a Polish Jew, on this - although certainly statistically the majority of of Jews suffered relatively more that a majority of Poles, Jews seem to have this weird - let me quote him - "'triumphalism of pain': which means that only we, the Jews, have the right to pain, only we have the right to be the object of compassion as sufferers."

If you truly want to be seen as pioneers in pain, even some sort of symbol of suffering, whether it be genocide, WWII, racism or persecution then that means it is your DUTY and OBLIGATION to remember ALL victims of suffering instead of suggesting that talking about them should be punished by law. Especially since relatively Gypsies had it even harder - they stood out more, the classification was even more strict than for Jews and there was no heroic rescue of Gypsies.

And who remembers this now? Oh sure - people remember about Gypsies. As in: they write long thick books about the suffering of Jews and somewhere inside they add a passege 'Other victims included Gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped...". Anne Frank and Oskar Schindler are names famous internationally. Tell me one name of a Gypsy Holocaust victim or their rescuer.

And by the way: When was the last you took a homeless person to your house MareGaea, even though you would not be executed for that? When was the last time you donated a penny for children in Africa who starve to death no less painfully than did Jewish children in Ghettos or Polish children outside them? How dare you pass jugdement on people who desperately tried to survive themselves and somehow find time and will to help disliked neighbours who barely spoke their language and put their families to danger, whereas you yourself live comfortably while helping... pretty much nobody? How dare you?

Furthermore, if you say that Poles merrily murdered Jews then I can say that Jews merrily murder Palestinians - in much bigger numbers not to mention to this day on!

Jews say 'never Again' and yet they don't mean anything by it. Israel has a quota for the number of refugees from places like Darfur or Cambodia. That's a very selective 'Never Again'...

You mean all that pseudo-psychological nonsense about Poles feeling "desire to be
included in the Holocaust" and not having their sufferings recognized enough etc. etc.?
I didn't even comment on that (out of a pity mostly).

Soviets commited genocide on Poles before 1939 and Katyń genocide was only a logical
(from their point of view) continuation of their earlier genocide. Simple as that, really.


You still don't understand that genocide can also be comitted out of political reasons
(just like the communist genocide in Cambodia for example) and doesn't need to have
anything to do with ethnicity.

In answer to:


I wrote:



You still only read into my post what you want to read, not what I actual say. So I have even emboldened the relevant part of each to make it even clearer for you to pick up.

But, if you are broadening this out from Katyń I guess you must think the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban is genocide also afterall here is an identifiable group being specifically targetted for destruction? The Sunni muslims of Iraq killing Shiite muslims and vice versa— both genocide? The Hamas attacks against Israel are also attempted genocide—for political reasons or ethnicity? And Israel's subsequent attacks on Hamas/Palestinians was genocide for attempted genocide from Hamas?


More genocide for political reasons. More deliberate targetting of identifiable groups.
The IRA attacks against the British and British killing of IRA—genocide?
ETA in Spain more genocide. White farmers targetted by Mugabe's henchmen for being white farmers .... then the whole world is full of genocide using your 'political' reasons.


Genocide by Poles against Ukranians and genocide by Ukranians against Poles!

Your 'political reasons' make as little sense as you changing your mind as to whether war existed between USSR and Poland in 1939 or at all ... one minute you say it was not, then you agree it was! At least I know what I am thinking.


Undeniably, there are posts after posts on this forum that back up my nonsense! Here is just one from this thread.


is not that about :



Maybe that is because you are part of the problem not its solution.

Isn't part of the reason that the Polish government also needs Katyń to be classified by world opinion as genocide rather than simply a war crime is that there is a vastly increased chance for Poland to have its day in an international court if it is genocide and not simply a war crime. Having its day in court is about Poland gaining world recognition of Polish suffering often overshadowed by the Jewish Holocaust not about getting justice for crimes committed.

I can say exactly the same thing about you.


Did Irish government imprisoned several thousand of regular British army
officers, British pastors, landowners and lawyers and then executed them
for political reasons? Even mentioning the IRA, Hamas, Taliban and ETA in
the context of Katyń and trying to compare them makes as little sense as
most of your previous posts.


Well, I was convinced by your argument and I admitted that there was war between
Poland and USSR in September 1939 (even if not officialy declared and even if Polish
commander in chief ordered Polish troops not to fight the Soviets). I'm not as stubborn
as you so I can change my mind when I hear sensible arguments
BUT
I thought I explained in my previous post that what actually matters is the fact that
there was no war between Poland and USSR in April 1940, at the time of Katyń
genocide - and that's decisive in this case.

So, what would you call the Pol Pot's crimes in Cambodia? They were commited purely
for political reasons, ethincity of victims played no part at all. Was it a genocide or
a war crime?

KATYN

Red Star

THREE DEVILS

Beria



Katyn was the work of the half-Khazar psychopath Joseph Stalin, along with his 'assistant' the Khazar devil Lazar Kaganovich...Khazar devil, rapist and paedophile Lavranti Beria also had a hand in the murders...The actual killing, typically with a bullet to the back of the head/neck was carried out by Jewish NKVD functionaries, along with Russian slaves... Please read Juri Lina's book 'Under the Sign of the Scorpion' for a full picture of who the Communists were and how they came into power, with a full description of their satanic acts...For Katyn, refer to pages 305-307........Germans had absolutely no hand in the act...BTW, loyal Polish officers of Jewish descent were among those massacred by these madmen.

vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/LINAscorpioeng.pdf

joepilsudski

Joe, I normally regard your contributions as valuable, however, now you are losing track, it seems (and I am forgiving you now for that silly remark earlier that Auschwitz produced only 47.000 victims). As I understand it, Katyn was Stalin's paranoid effort to effectively rid Poland of it's (militairy) talent and intelligence, should Poland re-emerge as a state. A state most likely to be hostile towards the USSR AND on the direct Western Border. By killing off the talent and intelligentia, PL would not be able to turn hatred into an effective/successful war.

And again: it was mass-murder and not genocide.

Also, Katyn is once again a brilliant example of Slavic Brotherhood, which is so often propagated here on PF.

M-G (doesn't believe Lina - too much bias in his book)

Just 144 such people from one NKVD POW camp and 465 from camps in Western Ukraine and Belorussia help prisoner for being involved in insurectionary organistations... not even because they were priests, landowners or lawyers... not even because they were Polish, although they were, but because they were resisting the Soviet occupation, however we would call them patriots.


I agree totally it makes no sense at all, and so you should now see how nonsensical it is for you to compare the Katyń deaths to the Pol Pot regimes killing of 1.7 million people in Cambodia. Which was my point entirely.


It is a matter of record: Pol Pot’s chief torturer, Kaing Guek Eav, was charged with war crimes rather than genocide. Nuon Chea, second in command of the Khmer Rouge was charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity and not charged with genocide by the genocide tribunal. As I don't know enough about the Pol Pot regime and the Khemer Rouge who am I to argue that this was wrong?


This is a complete misconception. The Memorandum of March 5, 1940 requesting the execution of those held in NKVD POW camps did not come from Stalin at all, it came from L. Beria, The People’s Commissar For Internal Affairs of the USSR. Beria requested Stalin should consider the immedidiate excecution of these POWs which included 6,000 deseters (which was in fact ten times the number of Polish landowners, lawyers and priests listed in the memorandum; Stalin did not disagree that they should be exececuted and signed the documents as did Molotov, Voroshilov and Mikoyan. Also signed by Comrade Kalinin and Comrade Kaganovich. But Stalin did not initiate the executions.


Where is you evidence that the executions were the work of Jewish NKVD functionaries? There has been no criminal investigation into Katyń whatsoever—which is the point of Poland's efforts to get one instigated! Your rabid anti-semitism shines through again as a beacon of enlightement—you really should stick to talking to yourself on the oblivion of your blog!

No they were not: Group Polesie was fighting both the Nazis and the Soviets. You'd know that if you bothered to go to the war cemetery in Kock.


That's a lie. Regular Polish forces were still fighting the Red Army in October 1939.


Your claim is that without a formal declaration of war there can be no war crimes. Kindly explain why the following persons are charged with war crimes despite there having been no relevant declaration of war:

Kaing Guek Eav;
Nuon Chea;
Former President of Sierra Leone Charles Taylor;
President of Sudan Omar al-Bashir;
Former Vice President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo Jean-Pierre Bemba;
Germain Katanga;
Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui;
Radovan Karadžić;
Ratko Mladić.

Any idea when Polish 'irreguars' such AK and NSZ were officially recognised by the Allies as combatant forces?


or why they are charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity rather than genocide?

That is true, however, it suited Stalin's paranoya perfectly. Mea culpa, I knew it was Beria who initiated it.

M-G (tiens)

liveleak.com/view?i=2c0_1250181634&c=1

Thank God I am not an Israelian. Why do you go to such lengths to convince me that Poles have suffered more or less than the Jews did? The example of the boy with his mom's brains all over him is just what it is: an example, nothing more. It's an isolated incident meant to portray the cruelty with which the Poles were met. Don't come with the objectivity-thing you throw at me. You're not objective yourself, so don't expect others to be objective and in general I am more objective than you are as you constantly in all your posts try to prove that Poles were worst off than Jews. At least I try to balance as much as I can, but there are too many posters here who still put all the blame on the Jews in order to make it look like the Poles suffered more. Sometimes this gets annoying and yes, then I say something boldly as a counterweight. Funny how you never react like this when somebody claims again that the Jews owe it all to themselves. But maybe that's just the "objectivity" you propagate? Wonder why that is...Maybe because your slightly biased yourself?

M-G (check the time and day on which it was posted. Should give some clue)

Michael Schudrich, rabbi of Warsaw and Lodz, stated:

" ... We, Jews, have to acknowledge that there were Jews in the service of the communists, or even the Nazis, who committed crimes against the Poles, and also against other Jews. However, they never said that they were doing this in the name of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, the time has come for us Jews to feel and understand the Polish pain in order for the Poles to feel and understand our pain."

---------------

I'd say that is well put.

I believe Lina...His documentation is just too extensive, too wide ranging from a large variety of sources...He confronts head on the 'Jewish/Khazar' aspect of the Communist tyranny...This is forbidden for any mainstream journalist...Lina covers all aspects of the phenomena censored by the rest...As far as 'mass murder' or 'genocide', murder is murder, and only the extent and nature of the psychopathology is a matter of debate.

On Auschwitz, I have read almost all the important documents, including the testimony of the camp Kommandant...My opinion is that true statistics for Aushwitz will never be known, because of politics...The Soviet Union, the Allies & the Khazars all found/find it to their advantage to promote the mythology of millions, and continue to use the deaths of all the camp victims, primarily the Jewish ones, as tools to stir up fear and hatred.

As far as I know they were not officially recognised as combatants by anybody except the Germans (part of the Agreement for the Cessation of Hostilities in Warsaw was " From the moment of laying down their arms the soldiers of the Home Army are entitled to the rights of the Geneva Convention dated 27.8.29 [August 27, 1929], concerning the treatment of prisoners of war. Soldiers of the Home Army taken prisoner in the area of the city of Warsaw in the course of the struggle which began on August 1st, 1944, shall enjoy the same rights.")

Forbidden only in your delusional anti-semitic world of Jewish world conspiracies and media control! The US has the first amendment that enshrines in law your citizens freedom of speech. If it were not so then the internet would be free of your anti-semitic websites, your debased prnography, your neo-nazis and your supremacist hate sites all hiding and protected behind your first amendment. Forbidden? What utter rubbish! If only it would be!


Yet more joepilsudski gibberish.
The true statistics will never be known because the SS destroyed the majority of the camp documents ahead of the advancing Red Army... nothing to do with Allied or anybody else's politics!

And I'm not from Jedwabne. If you feel fine applying collective guilt to Poles than you can't oppose applying collective guilt to Jews.


You're joking right? Reread your last two posts, please.


So do I. Which is why your last two posts, not objective at all, pissed me off and I wrote an emotional reply with which I hoped to force you to rethink your choice of words.


How ironic. Last time I protested against antisemitism in someone's message they said that I suck Jewish ***** and YOU agreed with them. Or could it be that you immidiately forget all your messages after posting them? As for people like joe pilsudski or cenowski - well, I just ignore all their comments. There is no debate with these people, nothing will change their views or stop them from posting them.

joepilsudski

Joe, you're going overboard here. There were approxiamately 960.000 Jews killed at Auschwitz and 140 to 150.000 Poles and 23.000 Roma Gypsies, according to Franciszek Piper. This is the most sophisticated number as Rudolf Höss told the interrogators Eichmann said it were about 2.5 to 4 million at Auschwitz. This number seemed too high, 960.000 to 1.1 million seems more appropriate.

M-G (tiens)

M-G, I asked you before in a different thread: why do you distinguish between Jews and Poles? Many of the Jewish Holocaust victims were Polish (or other) nationals.

Not at all. In my opinion there can be no war crimes without a factual state of war
(whether the war is officially declared or not is irrelevant).

In case of Katyń genocide there was neither an officially declared war between
Poland and USSR nor even a factual state of war as all military clashes between
Polish and Soviet armies ceased in September (or, if you say so, October) 1939.

So, in April 1940, at the time of Katyń genocide, there was no war between
Poland and USSR (declared or not) that would justify calling it a "war crime".


cambodiangenocide.org/genocide.htm

So, what are you saying? That it's purely a question of numbers? Like: 1.7 million is
a genocide and 22 thousand isn't? Or where do you draw a line? How many people,
do you think, have to be killed so we can call it genocide?

Let us say more than the 500 Polish lawyers, priests and landowners! Which the NKVD 'Katyń' memorandum cleary shows was less than 10% yes, less than 10% of the number of deserters that the NKVD also requested permission from Stalin to be executed!

BTW. Does your figure of 22,000 include the 6,000 deserters who would make up a fairly large percentage of this 22,000? About 27% would you say?

This is off-topic but you still keep trying your best to compare Katyn to Cambodia. So you still haven't offered a reason as to why Pol Pot’s chief torturer, Kaing Guek Eav, was charged with war crimes rather than genocide? Or Nuon Chea, second in command of the Khmer Rouge was charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity and not charged with genocide by what was refered to as the genocide tribunal? Seems to be a telling point to me. Over to you!

So, you admit that, in your opinion, it's a question of numbers and not of the nature
of the crime itself? I can not agree with that. For me the nature of the crime is
important and not the numbers.

But just out of curiosity. What do you mean by "more"? If 500 is not enough then
what number is sufficient for you? A thousand? A million?


In my opinion Katyń and Cambodia are comparable in the respect that both genocides
were commited for political reasons and that ethnicity played no part in any of them
(maybe it's not entirely true in case of Cambodia, but mostly it was a political, communist
genocide). Obviously I wasn't comparing the scale of Katyn and Cambodia.


I don't know. I'm not a specialist on the matter so you might try writing to
Cambodian Genocide Group and ask them. They should be well informed on
the matter.

cambodiangenocide.org/genocide.htm

Really? So I have good news for German (for example) National Socialist crowds. They can throw all 60k Sorbs living in this planet to death camps and still nobody could claim that they committed genocide.