WAS KATYŃ GENOCIDE? Polish officers were killed

There was no peace treaty, because Polish government (both in Poland and in exile)
never formally declared the state of war against Soviet Union (Soviet government never
did either for that matter). So if there's no war - there's no peace treaty.


There was never really a formal war and with the ceasing of Soviet military operations
in September 1939 the "opprotunity" to call any criminal acts commited against Polish
citizens a "war crime" has dissapeared. There was no state of war between Poland and
SU in April 1940 , so using the term "war crime" in such situation is nonsensical.


What evidence are you talking about? There were thousands of people murdered
because of political reasons (being "enemies of the people") just like the victims
of communist genocide in Cambodia for example.


Reasons for this are irrelevant. If thousands of people are murdered for political reasons,
as it was in case of Katyn or Cambodia for example - this is genocide. Simple as that.


Instead of making these funny "ha" sounds you could explain to us all, how can you
commit a "war crime" without a war. Maybe you know some international law, which
allows the term "war crime" without a war? :-)

From Moscow state archives Katyń execution document dated March 5th, 1940:

'... The POWs, the officers and the policemen in the camps are trying to continue counter-revolutionary activities. Every one of them is only waiting to be freed in order to take an active role in the struggle against Soviet power.

In the Western districts of the Ukraine and Belorussia operatives of the NKVD have uncovered a number of insurrectionary organisations. Former officers of the former Polish Army, former policemen and gendarmes have been playing a leading role in these organisations.

Amongst the detained deserters and other persons who have violated state borders a considerable number of people have been discovered who are members of counter- revolutionary espionage and insurrectionary organisations...'

Why were they involved in 'insurrectionary organisations' when Poland was at peace with the USSR during and after 1939?


There was never really a formal war between Poland and Nazi Germany in 1939 either was there? But still a war was certainly waged nonetheless if I am not mistaken? Ha!

So maybe the Germans were also not guilty of any war crimes having not declared war on Poland is that what your are implying?

Even if we accept the Soviet NKVD documents as reflecting the whole historical truth
(yes, I know it's ridiculous, but just for the sake of argument) and not serving just
as a justification to murder people who were an obstacle to Soviet power and ideology
for many reasons then still it is clear that the sole existance of "insurrectionary organisations"
doesn't straightly imply the state of war.

Using a far analogy - there are independence movements in Spain or Turkey for
example, but there's no state of war in those countries, so if one day Spanish
or Turkish governments decide to capture, imprison and murder tens of thousands
of people who oppose their rule in Basque country or eastern Turkey (not necessarily
only Basques and Kurds) they will not be able to call it a "war crime".


Are you really not aware of the fact that there WAS a formal war between Poland
and Germany, even though it wasn't declared by the Germany. Polish government officialy
recognized the state of war between Poland and Germany (unlike between Poland and
SU, which was never recoginzed by either government).

Polish government in September 1939 and later in exile, considered Poland to be in a state
of war against nazi Germany (they teach about it in primary schools, how did you miss it?).

Ha! So in your view if the victim of an aggressor recognises a state of war exists but not the aggressor only then a war crime can be officially committed! No wonder no Poles wanted war crimes tribunals instigated against the Soviet Union after the non-war with USSR.

You are seriously expecting anyone to believe that there was no war against Poland by USSR? I wonder what Gen. Anders would have thought of that when he was leading his cavalry against the Red Army... you would call it merely military exercises no doubt!!!

I have reinstated your moved post back to #86. I found a small piece of it on another site it but did not break PF's rules as I first thought. My mistake and apologies.

Certainly not in the April of 1940.

So, even if you consider the Soviet military operations of September 1939 against
Poland to be a war (which wasn't considered that by neither Polish nor Soviet
governments) then still in April 1940, when the Katyń vicitms were murdered,
all the military activities involving Polish and Red army had long ceased, ergo it can't
be considered a "war crime".

I really couldn't have put it any simpler.

EDIT:
...or maybe I could... like putting it in points:

1. no state of war recognized by either of two sides

2. no military actions of Polish and Soviet armies against each other
at the time when the genocide was commited (as opposed to the
situation with Polish and German armies, which fought each other
on many fronts throughout the entire war).

3. many of the victims being civilians (priests, intellectuals, land owners,
lawyers etc. etc.) having nothing to do with any kind of war or military
operations.

1 + 2 + 3 = no war crime

Don't you? If not what are you saying the battle of Grodno was? And of the 300 or so defenders executed by the Soviets is not a war crime as no war was declared?

The British and French Governments formally declared war on Germany on 3 September but when exactly did Poland formally declare war on Germany?


Thank you ;-)

On September 1st 1939, Polish president Ignacy Mościcki and the Polish government
announced the state of war between Poland and Germany after Poland was attacked
without the formal declaration from the German side, but you must surely know this?

Prezydent Mościcki 1 IX 1939

"Premier gen. dyw. Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski ogłasza za zezwoleniem prezydenta Rzeczypospolitej zarządzenie Rady Ministrów wprowadzajace stan wyjątkowy na całym obszarze państwa, a prezydent Ignacy Mościcki - zarządzenie o stanie wojennym."

naszastolica.blox.pl/2009/09/Piatek-1-wrzesnia-1939-A-wiec-wojna.html

No such announcement was made in case of Soviet military operations on Polish territory
after September 17th 1939.


You can't compare Katyń to the executions after the battle of Grodno or any other clash
between Polish and Soviet armies in September 1939.
The Katyń genocide occured long after the military operations had ceased and there
was neither the declaration nor even the state of war announced by Polish or Soviet
side (I'm getting sick and tired of repeating this over and over again).

Hell no! The Committee Of the All-Union Communist Party and Beria are using the inappropriate term POW! Ha!

Knowing how you like to keep things simple:

1) P = Prisoner
2) O = Of
3) W = War
1+2+3 = Prisoner of War

So I think it is safe to assume the Committee Of the All-Union Communist Party thought they were at war with Poland even if you say Poland did not. No war no POWs!


If you are still saying a state of war did not exist between USSR and Poland when the 300 or so defenders of Grodno were executed in 1939 what are you describing their execution as? genocide also?

If we are to adhere to your nonsensical primary school arguments then you yourself cannot even in fact state that the Katyń was genocide. The executions took place in 1940 and the word genocide was not coined until 1944 so at the time of the executions four years earlier genocide could not have taken place as it didn't exist as a concept. A nonexistent concept in a nonexistent war. Ha!

I am still surprised that you would believe a commander of Anders stature and acumen should have taken it upon himself to attack the Red Army whilst they were on military exercises in Poland during 1939 did he not think that his actions might cause an international incident that could lead to war between his country and the USSR? I wonder if he received compensation for his wounds received due to 'friendly' fire incident with Red Army... oh yes he did, as honoured guest of Stalin at hotel Lubyanka!

You are right in one respect, though this was an entertaining diversion at one point, it is now become repetitively humdrum.

So full circle for me.

Was Katyń genocide?

No it was a war crime.


"The Prime Minister Maj. Gen.Składkowski publishes with the permission of the President of the Republic Council of Ministers and President Ignacy Mościcki a decree introducing state of emergency throughout the country, and martial law."

No declaration of war then just the introduction of a state of emergency and the introduction of martial law!

Martial law is the system of rules that takes effect when the military takes control of the normal administration of justice. Martial law was attempted to be imposed after hurricane Katrina to control looters. So not quite the same as a state of war.

A state of emergency is a governmental declaration that may suspend certain normal functions of government. Guardian newspaper April 2009 " As fears about swine flu spread around the world, Mike Hodgkinson reports from LA where a state of emergency has already been called" Not the same as a state of war!

From your document...



The document only says (providing that it's real and that the translation was done
accurately) that the above mentioned people "were held in the POW camps",
which doesn't automatically make them POWs.
If they were held in stables that wouldn't automatically make them horses, would it?

Apart from soldiers there were also civilians, settlers, landowners who were captured
after the military operations ceased and who had absolutely nothing to do with military
or any form of armed resistance.

You can use your dodgy interpretation of the terms "POW" and "war crime" as long
as you want, but the simple facts are that there was no official state of war between
Poland and Soviet Union and no international court of law would ever consider Katyń
a war crime.


My personal Quote of the Year so far: "Genocide could not have happened
as it didn't exist as a concept."

That's just too funny!

So, you are saying that, for example, in Middle Ages the magnetic field
wasn't there because it "didn't exist as a concept"? :-)

As for the rest of your post, I simply refuse to believe that you don't see
the difference between the factual state of war between Poland and Germany
with Polish and German regular formations fighting each other on all fronts of
WW2 and that between Poland and SU (in September 1939, Polish commander
in chief Edward Rydz-Śmigły issued an order to Polish armies NOT TO FIGHT
the Soviets - surely, he wouldn't do that if he believed that Poland and SU
were at war?).

So, there wasn't a war, if even the commander-in-chief ordered the troops
not to fight (and the overwhelming majority of those troops in eastern Poland
didn't fight the Red Army).

So full circle for me.

Was Katyń a war crime?

No, it was a genocide.

Indeed it was meant to be as ridiculous as your saying there was no 'war' between USSR and Poland in 1939 so no war crimes could have been committed! And by implication Anders was wounded in a friendly fire accident and he should not have sent his cavalry to attack the invading Red Army as they were there as friends (or so the Soviet propaganda went) ! Totally absurd!

The thousands of Polish POWs deported to work in the lead and gold mines of Kolyma were not actually prisoners of war they were sent on a working holiday to help their friends the Soviets? Where were the 'wish you were here' postcards home? Hang on, I guess there must have been soem very compelling postcards home because another 1.5 million Poles went to work in Siberia too! Ha!

And where is your fromal declaration of war between Poland and Germany...you only gave a reference in Polish about a 'state of emergency' and 'martial law' issued by Polish government —it was not a declaration of war! I look forward to seeing this document because by your own statements if there was no formal declaration of war then any battles are clashes and not war, and by implictaion there were no war crimes committed by the Germans in Poland either! Totally absurd!

There is no doubt that Polish forces fought on all fronts against the Germans by those forces that escaped Poland as part of the British (and commonwealth) and French Allies—who had both formally declared war on Germany. But by your definition without a formal declartion of war between the protagonists, Germany and Poland, it is not war but only 'clashes'. The 'clash' of Monte Cassino! Ha! You seem to have ignored answering the question: What was the execution by the Soviets of the defenders of Grodno in 1939? A war crime? or genocide? Surely this is simple enough?

Maybe you are simply a product of a communist eductation system—whereby the invasion of Poland was taught that it was to help the Poles in its time of 'troubles' with the invading German forces from the west who equally were not at war with Poland as they hadn't formally declared war on Poland!

If only the POWs murdered at Katyń weren't wearing Polish army uniforms and had been wearing pantomine horse outfits instead then could all have been said to be held in stables not POW camps, and there is no war-crime in killing horses. Ha!

Makes one wonder why Soviets needed POW camps at all if there was no war going on?


There is no criminal investigation or trial taking place so you cannot make such a definitive statement :-)

There were another 150 thousand Polies in Soviet Union murdered as a result
of NKVD actions between 1934 and 1938 (so it was before September 1939).
You will probably tell me that it wasn't genocide either because their
ethnicity played no part at all, they were held in the same camps as Katyń
victims and they were the "enemies of the people".


It can be considered a war crime because, even though there was no official declaration
of war, it took place during the military operations and Polish defenders were
captured during the battle. The same cannot be said about Katyń vicitms as many of
them weren't military personel and were imprisoned by Soviets long time after the military
operations ceased.


What they taught you in school is none of my concern, but your pro-Russian,
pro-Soviet stance is very clear to anyone reading this thread. I'm sure Vladimir
Putin would agree with your calling Katyń "war crime" instead of genocide and
would appreciate the efforts you make in spreading your views.

I'm not old enough to remember the communist education system, but I'm sure
it has something to do with your embarassingly pro-Russian attitude and the denial
of Soviet genocide on members of Polish nation.

If you really don't see the difference between the barbaric, total war against
Poland, not formally declared but many times verbalized by Hitler in his speeches
and the Soviet operation in Eastern Poland in September 1939 then I can only
pity you.


But you see, many of them weren't wearing Polish army uniforms. There were priests,
lawyers, land owners, settlers and civil servants.

Apart from that it is quite funny that you seem to know better that Poland and Soviet
Union were at war (not declared but still) whilst even the Polish government in exile
denied being at war with Soviets and, at the same time, confirmed by their words and
actions that Poland was in fact at war with Germany (without formal declaration).



It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it and I will stick to it unless some international court
of law proves me wrong - which I don't think will happen :-)

Anyway - keep up the good work in denying Soviet genocide, tavarishch.
I'm sure Russians will appreciate it one day - maybe you will even be given
a medal.

So now you are agreeing that there was in fact no formal declaration of war from Poland to Germany. Ha!

Yet, the whole thrust of your argument was based on the premise that as there was no such declaration of war between USSR and Poland Katyńn could not have been a war crime as a sate of war did not exist?

Now using your argument against you as you now accept that there was no declaration of war between Poland and Germany (only a state of emergency and martial law) then likewise there were no war crimes committed in Poland by Germans as a state of war did not exist! If as you have argued a state or war was needed for a war crime to be committed. You can't have it otherwise.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but your argument for holding this opinion is absurd if it is based on the argument you presented.

I do not deny that genocide may or may not have been perpatrated against Poles by Soviet Union prior to 1939 as you allude to, only that it did not take place at Katyń and the other execution sites where POWs were slaughtered. I do not believe there was a genocidal campaign against Poles following 17 September 1939 invasion, the evidence to me is that there were war-crimes ie. Katyń and crimes against humanity-the deportation of between 1,5 -1,7 million Polish civilians to camps in various Soviet Republics, neither of which were genocide.

However, I like the idea of working for Putin-if you are reading this :-)

Here is an interesting account (in Polish) of the battles of SGO "Polesie" with the Red Army at Jabłonią and Infantry Division "Kobryn" at Milanowem from 28 to 29 September 1939 during the non-war with USSR.

1939.pl/bitwy/sgopolesie/


God knows I deserve one now we have reached a conclusion.

There was a factual state of war between Poland and Germany acknowledged by Hitler
and by Polish government in exile (even though the war wasn't formally declared).

It's not the case with Poland and Soviet Union, in which case, neither Polish nor Soviet
government acknowledged or admitted to being at war with the other side.
The difference is obvious. For some reason you refuse to see it.


Katyń was only a logical continuation of the genocidal campaign against Poles in Soviet
Union before the war.


You keep repeating the word "POW" as if it was some kind of a spell (maybe you have to
do it, because it's written in your Genocide Denial Manual) but maybe you would be so kind
as to answer a simple question:

How can a civilian settler, a priest or a lawyer, captured long time after all the military
operations on a given area has ceased, be considered a "POW"?

As some of you know I am at Harvard working on my Master's in History; my thesis is on Katyń. Though I do not profess to know-it-all.

In historical context, yes, Katyń was genocide in 1948; any Ph.D. will say that and substantiate it as I will. The very term "genocide" was created by a Pole (Raphael Lemkin) during the Nuremberg Trials explicitly to be applied to this crime. Poles say yes, hard-line ex-Soviets say no. Is all really fair in war?

However, nowadays, in this revisionist historical world we live in many government/political academics and historians consider Katyń to be a "democide".

A.D. = C.E.
B.C. = B.C.E.
Genocide = Democide

Philosophically, what is the difference between the NAZI party's purge of Poles and Jews compared to the purges committed by Lenin/Stalin? Less sheer numbers?! Both fulfill the legal definition of "genocide", as accepted by the UN.

As time moves forward, historical contexts become changed; for many reasons and political gains and losses.

I have read a lot of opinion here, I'd suggest people read the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of August 1939 from an unbiased analytical view. The truth is often simple, but brutal and easily ignored or supressed: Germany wanted the Poles gone so his master race could move to move Germania eastward, and the Soviet leadership believed the Poles were to hard-headed in an nationalistic sense to become communist and wanted to move westward.

Katyń is a Polish national cry, rightly so. It is an admitted mistake, by Stalin himself. A white-wash in political discussion of the Big Three Conferences from 1944 to the Nuremberg Trials. It should not be ignored or forgotten, but it cannot be the rule of life either. Trust me on the later, I have been studying Katyń for two years and sometimes I feel completely overwhelmed and in disbelief.

Henry.

Thank you very much, Henry, for your balanced, unbiased and insightful post on the
matter in which you are, obviously, very knowledgeable and hopefuly one day you
will become a world class expert in this area.

I've heard a lot of good things about Harvard and apparently they were all true
if there are such outstanding scholars as yourself studying there.


But of course it was.


I'd even say that any man with a little bit of common sense would say that.


Dear readers, please review the thread to see who is a Pole and who
is a hard-line ex-Soviet. Ha!

Thank you again for your first-rate post, Henry. I wish you all the best
in all your future endeavours, professional and personal and I hope that
your Master's thesis will soon be available for a wider audience to read.

I am sure you don't mean that 'genocide' was coined by Lemkin to apply to Katyń executions?

Surely HWPiel, in truth genocide was coined to describe the slaughter of European Jews which included, let's say roughly 2.5 million or almost 90% of Poland's Jewish population and not to describe the execution of 144 Polish Civil servants, landowners, Roman Catholic priests and military settlers or the 465 former landowners, factory owners and civil servants from western districts of the Ukraine and Belorussia listed in the Katyn execution document. The execution of 6,127 deserters is genocide because? Because they constitute a specific group? And what about the 5,345 members of various counter-revolutionary and insurrectionary organisations? The 347 spies and saboteurs?

No targetting of specific groups unless you would argue that 144 civil servants, landowners, and Roman Catholic priests constitute a majoritive grouping of some kind in the same way that all of the Polish Jews were targetted by the Nazis for which Lemkin coined the term genocide to describe what we now call the Holocaust.

I have yet to see any documentary evidence that the Soviets had a genocidal policy against Poles per se in the same way the the Nazis obviously did against Poles and Jews. Unless of course in the process of your studies you have come across such Soviet documents? If you have then I would be very interested to know of them and I may even be persuaded to agree with your views ;-)

For obvious reasons I have deliberately left out the Polish military POWs who were undeniably prisoners of war and were exhumed still wearing the uniforms they were taken prisoner in.


Crikey, now I am a hard-line Soviet, Ha!

I surely do deserve that medal! Maybe the Order of Lenin. Is it still available?

I would recommend you to get acquainted with the works of professor Mikołaj Iwanow from the University of Opole. Most notably "First nation punished: Poles in Soviet Union 1921-1939".

historia.uni.opole.pl/show.php?id=41&lang=pl&m=1

Here's a short extract from the article "Forgotten Genocide" published by "Nasz Dziennik":



Ha!

polonica.net/Zapomniane_ludobojstwa_Polakow.htm


I appreciate the sense of humour, but instead of embarassing yourself even further you might consider doing some reading and historical research (just as our friend Henry, an outstanding scholar from Harvard, did) to decrease your ignorance a little bit.

Correct me if I am wrong but looking at the dates you refer me too what has this to do with Katyń executions ???

Correct me if I am wrong but we were discussing a period of WWII where I do not believe there was a Soviet genocidal policy targetting Poles during this period in terms of ethnicity or other majorative grouping in the same way the Nazis targetted European Jews?

Unless you are somehow now arguing 144 civil servants, landowners, and Roman Catholic priests were a majorative grouping? Or the 465 former landowners, factory owners and civil servants from western districts of the Ukraine and Belorussia listed in the Katyn execution document? Or the execution of 6,127 deserters is genocide because? Because they constitute a specific group? And what about the 5,345 members of various counter-revolutionary and insurrectionary organisations? or the 347 spies and saboteurs? I would say these are all diseperate groups although 97% were calssified as Polish they were not targetted for being merely Polish that much is clear.

If that is your arguement then it as absurd as you stating that war did not exist between USSR and Poland in 1939 as neither side actually declared war, and yet war existed between Germany and Poland even though neither side actually declared war on each other-well you haven't yet produced any documents to show they did.

I don't mind embarrassing myself further in fact my colour would then match the Red Star I proudly wear on my heart :-))


Polish Anti-Semitic graphic on Polonica.net

You need to give Charles Taylor a call. He's currently facing 650 indictments at the UN Special Court for Sierra Leone for war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the conflict in Sierra Leone. Apparently all you need to do is to get hired as his lawyer, stand up and say "He's clearly not guilty of any of those war crimes charges because their was no formal declaration of war and so there can not have been any war crimes!" and he'll beat the rap.

Once you've helped Mr Taylor you can go on to the ICC, some people there would love to hear from you: Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir (charged with crimes against humanity and war crimes), former Vice President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo Jean-Pierre Bemba (war crimes and crimes against humanity), and Germain Katanga and Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui (six counts of war crimes and three counts of crimes against humanity). Then go on to the ICTY, Radovan Karadžić is facing (amongst other things) three counts of war crimes charges and Ratko Mladić will hopefully soon be joining him.

Looks like you have a very promising career ahead of you as an international lawyer. I suggest you tell your boss that he can stick his Big Mac up his arse because you're moving on to better things.

I told you that Katyn was only a logical continuation of earlier Soviet genocide on Polish
nation and you said: "I have yet to see any documentary evidence that the Soviets had
a genocidal policy against Poles per se". You didn't mention any exact period, so I thought
that you might be unaware of the earlier genocide.


I don't know if the website is great or not (apparently not) but they posted a press
article - an interview with professor Mikołaj Iwanow to which I provided a link.
Anything else posted on that side is none of my concern.


If you say so. I don't think it's that great really, sjam.

@Harry:

Your reading comprehension is appalling, Harry.

I don't think that all the people you mentioned would like to hire me to prove
that their crimes weren't war crimes but genocides - because that's exactly
what I was trying to prove in Katyń's case.

Now you say you didn't know we were talking about 1939 or 1940 time period—it is only a matter of reading your own posts how see how absurd it is to say 'You didn't mention any exact period' if I didn't you certainly did ! Ha!


Oh really! I don't believe you! You plainly link to a source coming from a moronic Polish anti-semitic website. But I get where you are coming from now!

Just had a call from my friend Putin who congratulated me on my anti-Polish stance and offered me that medal you mentioned for my efforts. I am off to have dinner with him now :-)

Well, you didn't mention any exact period when you said that you are "yet to see
any documentary evidence that the Soviets had a genocidal policy against Poles
per se" and in one of your earlier posts you said that you the genocide against
Poles "may or may not have been" perpatrated by the Soviets prior to 1939.
For me it sounded like you doubted the obvious.


Erm... you don't believe what exactly? That the link was to a press article from
a Polish daily newspaper posted on the above mentioned site? Or that it was
an interview with a University professor?

You are being funny trying to accuse me of anti-semitism. It's so ridiculous that
it doesn't even merit a reply. I guess you're one of those people who, when lacking
arguments, resort to calling their opponents "anti-semites". Hilarious :-)


LOL

What do you "get"? That I'm an anti-semite because I say that Katyń was a genocide :-)
You were making some sense (not much but still) couple of posts ago, but now you
completely lost it :-)


It was funny at first but the joke wore off long time ago, now it's just boring.

Oh come on. Pls. Get over it. "Gee, we were glad the Jews were all killed, so that would make room for us, poor Poles who have been lending money from the Jews for centuries and just as it was time to pay back, the nazis came and wow, they killed them all! But then those evil soviet guys came and kicked our *sses. And now the entire world owes us!"

Who gives a f*ck outside Poland? I am sure not many ppl.

M-G (sorry to hurt your feelings)

Again Katyn alone was not genocide it was part of genocide

MareGaea if you do not talk or understand history it will happen to you some day as it happen many time over this might be shock to you not only jews died in ww2 but also Gipsies

but Jews made the holocaust theirs so everyone can feel sorry for them and look now Jews are running the biggest geto in the world " Palestinian territory " they did or did not learn from history, but we can say this has happen before and recognize the evil much quicker

so now you understand why studding and talking is important you moran.

Marek, stop this while I still respect you. 6 million is no comparison to 40.000, ok?

And tell me, what did PL learn? Except for complaining that the whole world treated them so badly?

Ps: tell me also what's wrong with the Poles that they even have to draw the drama of the Holocaust into the entire discussion, only to end that the Poles were worst off and not the Jews? How dare they say that they have been treated worse than the Jews in WW2? How dare they? Just let me make it very clear: Poles were NOT worse off than the Jews were. Not by far. And to be gross: you Poles went merrily on killing Jews, even after the war was over. How dare you Poles say that you were worst off than the Jews. Anyone who says that, should be put into prison or something. Even today I get called "Jew" by some Polish b*stard and they add to it that I would be better off dead. You tell me, Marek, you Poles should be ashamed of that. Just ashamed, instead of finding excuses. It's all so simple.

M-G (tsk)

those are TWO separate issues, don't mix them up.

aphrodisiac

Yes, that would be the same as: "We Poles have been treated badly in the past, now we can be racist towards just about everything that isn't white. But don't you dare say something about us!"

M-G (getting tired)

Why do you distinguish between Poles and Jews? The Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Polish, Dutch, German, French, etc. nationals.

What are you on about? Nobody was talking about the Jews here.
The entire argument was about Katyń being either a war crime or a genocide.

I was against the opinion of some posters saying that it's a war crime because, among
other things, it would mean that we are currently at war with Russia - following their logic:

Katyń is a war crime so...
there was a war between Poland and SU...
after the war ends some kind of a peace treaty is signed...
no such document was signed between Poland and SU...
Russia is a legal heir of Soviet Union so...
we are at war with Russia.

You see how absurd it is. Of course we are not at war with Russia. Maybe we should
assume that if the war isn't declared it ends with all the hostilities and military operations
of regular units of both involved countries. In such case the war of Poland against
Germany ended in May 1945 and the war against Soviet Union ended in September 1939,
so at the time of Katyń genocide (April 1940) there was no war between Poland and SU,
so logically Katyń cannot be considered a war crime.

It's only common sense. Plus the fact that many of the vicitims didn't have anything
to do with armed forces or any kind of military resistance to Soviets and the fact that
Katyń was only a logical continuation of earlier Soviet genocide on Poles, should make
it obvious that calling Katyń a war crime doesn't make much sense.


Why should I care that many people outside Poland don't "give a f*ck" about Katyń?
It's a Polish matter, I'm Polish living in Poland and I'm discussing it on a Polish forum.
Makes sense doesn't it?

Are you saying that people in Netherlands, Spain, Zimbabwe and Vietnam "don't give
a f*ck" about Katyń? Breaks my heart :-)


:-)

You didn't hurt my feelings at all. You were just posting some random nonsense.

^ You clearly have no idea what war crimes actually are. Go away and read a little about international law.