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Is Jozef Pilsudski the king of modern Poles?


Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
31 Jan 2010 #31
I doubt it.

You are the expert...I'm only wikiing! *bows out*

:)
Bzibzioh
31 Jan 2010 #32
You are the expert...

... and don't you forget it, mister!!! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
31 Jan 2010 #33
That could be as at that time it was the German merchants who made Krakow and other towns prosperous.

Why not the Polish merchants? After all it was the Poles who monopolised the river traffic so what did the Germans have to contribute when most of the wealth was in Polish hands? Exactly the kind of attitude i'm talking about.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
31 Jan 2010 #34
After all it was the Poles who monopolised the river traffic so what did the Germans have to contribute when most of the wealth was in Polish hands?

Because Krakau was mainly german till the 16th century and a member of the Hanseatic League?
The contrary was more likely true....

As the capital of a powerful state and a member of the Hanseatic League, the city attracted many craftsmen, businesses, and guilds as science and the arts began to flourish.[15]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

Kraków, then the capital of Poland, was also a Hansa city with German burghers around 1500.

Exactly the kind of attitude i'm talking about.

What attitude?
Bzibzioh
31 Jan 2010 #35
Why not the Polish merchants? After all it was the Poles who monopolised the river traffic so what did the Germans have to contribute when most of the wealth was in Polish hands?

Hanza?

Because Krakau was mainly german till the 16th century

Check what king Władysław £okietek did to German merchants :)
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
31 Jan 2010 #36
poloniatoday.com/explore10.htm

KRAKOW

Krakow holds a special place among the Polish towns which were members of the Hanseatic league. The splendor it enjoyed in the late medieval period was not only due to its membership in the union--Krakow of that time was above all the capital and the main administrative center of Poland.
However, as a Hanseatic town, Krakow could participate in the European trade exchange and let its own burghers prosper...
...
Many traces of the Hanseatic period have remained. Admiring them may become a fascinating adventure and unforgettable experience for those tourists who are interested in the European culture. It may also be an opportunity to visit unique monuments, in many cases almost unspoiled by the passage of time.

He:)
Did you know about this?

In 1980, it was decided to re-establish the Hanseatic League as the Hanseatic League of New Time (also known as the New Hansa). It hopes to foster and develop business links and tourism within towns and cities as well as promote cultural exchange.
Apart from old Hanseatic cities, the New Hansa granted membership to some cities which had not been members of the medieval Hansa but had had wide trade connections with the Hansa in the Middle Ages.
The latter include twelve Russian cities, most notably Novgorod, which was a major Russian trade partner of the Hansa in the Middle Ages, even though Russian cities had never been official members of the Hanseatic League.

Sokrates 8 | 3,346
31 Jan 2010 #37
Because Krakau was mainly german till the 16th century and a member of the Hanseatic League?
The contrary was more likely true....

I'm sorry but thats just a chauvinistic lie, one of your many Kraków throught its history had a Polish majority, calling a Polish capital with a Polish majority and a city that due to grain trade was the most important in Hanseatic league "German" makes you an idiot.

Ps. there was no Hanseatic league without Poland, all grain trade from Ukraine went through Poland, any sort of an embargo f*cked the entire Baltic region over a period of few weeks which happened during several wars with the Teutons when various German princess felt like helping out.

What attitude?

Chauvinistic lies? You just called a Polish capital a predominantly German city, as far as i know the absolute peak of Germans in Kraków was about 24% and they moved to the city because it was so prosperous not to make it so.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
31 Jan 2010 #38
I'm sorry but thats just a chauvinistic lie, one of your many Kraków throught its history had a Polish majority, calling a Polish capital with a Polish majority and a city that due to grain trade was the most important in Hanseatic league "German" makes you an idiot.

Well...I can't help you if you deny facts...it was founded under the german Magdeburg Law, was till 1500 in it's majority German and got rich in trading within the Hanseatic League (a german trade union) you can call it what you want, but you won't change the facts.

Why don't you just read some of the links and inform yourself...

- The city was almost entirely destroyed during the Mongol invasion of Poland in 1241, after Polish attempts to repulse the invaders had been crushed in the Battle of Chmielnik.

- Kraków was rebuilt in 1257, in a form which was practically unaltered, and received self government city rights based on the Magdeburg Law.

- Kraków was a member of the Hanseatic league and many craftsmen settled there, established businesses and formed craftsmen's guilds.
City Law, including guilds' depictions and descriptions, were recorded in the German language Balthasar Behem Codex.


- In 1475 delegates of the elector George the Rich of Bavaria came to Kraków to negotiate the marriage of Hedwig, the daughter of King Casimir IV Jagiello to George the Rich. Hedwig traveled for two months to Landshut in Bavaria, where an elaborate marriage celebration, the Landshut Wedding (Landshuter Hochzeit 1475) took place in St. Martin's church (Landshut).

Around 1502 Kraków was already featured in the works of Albrecht Dürer as well as in those of Hartmann Schedel (Nuremberg Chronicle) and Georg Braun (Civitates orbis terrarum).

.....

Germans constituted the majority during the 14th century, and became Polonized in the 16th century.[13]

During Krakaus' Golden Age it is a mainly german inhabited town, prospering as member of the german Hanseatic League, many german artists build the most beautiful things in the town....but noooooo, after Sokrates Germans had never anything to do with Kraukau's prosperity and beauty, how dare they, those chauvinistic liars!

Ignoring facts is the means of an idiot!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
31 Jan 2010 #39
BB got anything except for Wiki? No offence but anyone can edit it and for example Nathan regularly edits Wiki articles to fit his view, i know history of Kraków very well and couldnt find a single period when they constituted a majority.

I cant find any Polish source that would confirm your views so either we as Poles practice Soviet school of history (ie falsifying it) or the only place where Germans were a majority in Kraków is on the pages of Wikipedia.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
31 Jan 2010 #40
BB got anything except for Wiki?

As far as I can see I'm the only one bringing some facts to the discussion!

You are the one with only an opinion....

know history of Kraków very well

ROFLMAO!!!
Ironside 49 | 10,616
31 Jan 2010 #41
The name was to call a region of birth, as for his nationality he was from a Polish noble family, with a Polish coat of arms and a long tradition of pro-Polish patriotic activities

its not exactly right, he was from Lithuanian noble family .....but he considered himself Lithuanian in historical sense, but for simplified minds of contemporary cartoon fans - is better to stress that for all practical purpose it explains that he was Polish;P
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Feb 2010 #42
As far as I can see I'm the only one bringing some facts to the discussion!

You are the one with only an opinion....

Sorry? You're bringing wikipedia and given your outlandish thesis that Kraków had a German minority i'm inclined to believe you either edited it or are aware that its bollocks, find another source.

its not exactly right, he was from Lithuanian noble family .....but he considered himself Lithuanian in historical sense, but for simplified minds of contemporary cartoon fans - is better to stress that for all practical purpose it explains that he was Polish;P

Piłsudski is a Polish coat of arms.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
1 Feb 2010 #43
Where are your sources?
Oh and I didn't say they were a minority...in Krakau's golden age they were the MAJORITY!

Here yet another source:
archive.org/stream/cracowroyalcapit00lepsuoft/cracowroyalcapit00lepsuoft_djvu.txt

Quotes:

IN the vast plains of Little Poland, now laid waste by the
first Mongolian invasion, the whole civilization of the
country was annihilated, the soil left fallow, the cities
burnt down and depopulated.
The only means to raise the
country economically was the introduction of foreign capital and
foreign hands for work. German colonization, on a large scale,
was begun

etc....tire yourself out!

I'm done discussing with you as long your part consists only of abuse and far fetched opinions without any links to support it!
McCoy 27 | 1,275
1 Feb 2010 #44
Is Józef Piłsudski the king of modern Poles?

yes
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Feb 2010 #45
Oh and I didn't say they were a minority...in Krakau's golden age they were the MAJORITY!

Yes and you lied, your only proof was wiki, just like last time, given that anyone including you can edit it and we've had examples of people doing just that to fit their argument yours is worthless.

cracowroyalcapit00lepsuoft/cracowr oyalca pit00lepsuoft_djvu.txt

Where does it say they were anything but a minority in Kraków? Your source only states the facts, Germans were invited to Poland where over 200 years they polonised, nowhere does it say they were a majority in Kraków (since they werent).

Produce a source that you couldnt write yourself, any source and we'll have a discussion, thus far you're basing it off something that anyone could write.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
1 Feb 2010 #46
Yes and you lied, your only proof was wiki, just like last time, given that anyone including you can edit it and we've had examples of people doing just that to fit their argument yours is worthless.

Where did I lie you arsehole?

Again in plain, easy words (you can find it in any work about Krakau):

The city was almost entirely destroyed during the Mongol invasions of 1241, 1259 and 1287

It was rebuilt and incorporated in 1257, based on the Magdeburg law, with tax benefits and trade privileges for its citizens.[10] These citizens were German settlers who moved in during the Ostsiedlung, and who constituted a majority of burghers in contemporary Polish and Bohemian towns.[11]

As the capital of a powerful state and a member of the Hanseatic League, the city attracted many craftsmen, businesses, and guilds as science and the arts began to flourish.[15]

Germans constituted the majority during the 14th century, and became Polonized in the 16th century.[13]

14th century
In 1308 the rebellion of German speaking citizens of Kraków is broken by the Polish King. That costs Poland Gdansk annexed by Teutonic Orders. German speaking citizens will no more have political ambitions. They learn Polish and try to Polonize as quickly as possible.

Golden Age ends!

These are the facts arsehole...you can find them everywhere!

Here the same: knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Cracow,_Poland/

The first polish book was printed in Krakau by a German!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_printing_in_Poland

The oldest known print from Poland is considered to be the Almanach cracoviense ad annum 1474 (Cracovian Almanac for the Year 1474)[2]which is a single-sheet astronomical wall calendar for the year 1474 printed and published in 1473 [3] by Kasper Straube.

....
The first print written in Polish language is believed to be Hortulus Animae polonice, a Polish version of Hortulus Animae written by Biernat of Lublin, printed and published in 1513 by Florian Ungler in Kraków.

Do you really believe Veit Stoss and those printers were in Krakau just accidentally?

How do you think a town becomes a member of the german Hanseatic League in the first place??
It was a german merchant union after all!

Better you bring something or shut your trap!

Here another link who also tells the same story:

1911encyclopedia.org/Cracow

The city was practically ruined during the first Tatar invasion in 1241, but the introduction of German colonists restored its prosperity, and in 1257 it received "Magdeburg rights," i.e. a civic constitution modelled on that of Magdeburg.
In this year the Tuchhalle was built.

Another link with the same informations:

google.com/search?q=Krakow+history+Germans

....Crakow was also the cultural capital of the country with a university founded in 1364. In the 15 th century, Krakow's intellectuals ...The cities, long populated by foreigners--mostly Germans--slowly became more Polish.
The best example of this is the capital of Krakow, where by the end of the 15 th century the Polish element had become a majority.

meaning

Germans constituted the majority during the 14th century, and became Polonized in the 16th century.[13]

Who is here the liar, arshole!
vetala - | 382
1 Feb 2010 #47
BB, what exactly are you trying to prove? In 16th century they were 'polonized' and not by force so technically they are included in our ancestry. Yes, the input of our German ancestors was quite invaluable xD
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
1 Feb 2010 #48
....so technically they are included in our ancestry. Yes, the input of our German ancestors was quite invaluable xD

Yes, that was it....thank you! Now I can rest in peace :)
Ironside 49 | 10,616
1 Feb 2010 #49
Piłsudski is a Polish coat of arms.

do you know why?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
3 Feb 2010 #50
i'm inclined to believe you either edited it

Everyone edits for you?! Don't incline, pajaca kawałek ;)
Mr Grunwald 25 | 1,731
3 Feb 2010 #51
Veit Stoß a clearly German artists who did alot of cool work for now-polish towns but still is and was a German. ;)

Even if in-fact he was, he was still accepted as a Pole from the Polish community for all work he had done for Poles.
And Germans called him a Pole when he went back to Germany...

It's not a fact to call someone a Pole it's an honor!
If you look back in history there were no Poles 1000 years ago, there were Lędzianie, Mazowszanie etc

It's the connection of tribes wich made them all Polish (the cause itself, the joint to survive together) and anyone wanting to join it, can call himself a Pole if he truely feels like one in spirit. Piłsudski saw on himself as Pole/Lithuanian, Lithuanian body with a Polish soul. That's why the Lithuanians don't like him. He refused to acknowledge anything like separational Lithuania.

A true I RP thinker

BB
look at commonwealth.pl and check up the "Deutsche Vita" the choir music is wonderful (the best ive ever heard)

and yes Piłsudski is going to be Poland's king of all time! :D
Borrka 37 | 594
4 Feb 2010 #53
Golden Age ends!

No, it just starts.

It's a ground school's level basic knowledge that so called golden age of Cracow and in general of the Polish Commonwealth took place in 15th/16th century, driven by Polish magnates and their money.

It's rather interesting that all this happened first after full polonisation of the German element. Probably every culture needs its national background and hired craftsmen from the overpopulated and hunger striven Reich were not enough to do the job.

With all respect to Veit Stoss ... but who paid him and decided about character of his work ?

But you are obviously overestimating those German influences. After the first quasi prehistoric period of German presence Cracow became more and more Polish with a lot of Italian color.

Same goes for the influence of the Baltic oriented German Hansa.
Cracow used to be a member of it but you better take a look at any map LOL.

Anyway, nice remake of uncle Adolf's good nite fairy tales for Hitlerjugend!
vetala - | 382
4 Feb 2010 #54
Don't be hatin' Borrka ;) I'm sure your opinion would be the same as BB's if the discussion was about Polish influence in Lithuanian/Ukrainian/whicheverelse cities.
Mr Grunwald 25 | 1,731
4 Feb 2010 #55
Thanks for the link Gruni! :)

No problem (Kein problem)

It's rather interesting that all this happened first after full polonisation of the German element.

Still the German element was there, it's the mixing itself with a lot of cultures which made the Polish culture so unique at that time.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
4 Feb 2010 #56
But you are obviously overestimating those German influences. After the first quasi prehistoric period of German presence Cracow became more and more Polish with a lot of Italian color

You call history back till the 16th century pre-historic??? Interesting.... :)

It's rather interesting that all this happened first after full polonisation of the German element.

Nope, all these german artists and merchants which made the towns so beautiful and prosperous were most successful till their polonization.
And the polonization is synchronous with the end of Polands Golden Age...coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakow#Golden_age

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_in_Poland
TIT 5 | 211
4 Feb 2010 #57
just before partitions there was unbelievable amount of Germans who became Poles
just like the ones who are descendants of later ( XIX ) wave who bravely fought Nazi Germany in Polish ranks
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
4 Feb 2010 #58
Any links to those "unbelievable" amounts?

And there had been likewise lot's of "skis" who fought bravely FOR Nazi-Germany...
TIT 5 | 211
4 Feb 2010 #59
Bratwurst BoyTh

I don't give a brat to give you links.
Do your job yourself on your own.

No skis, German names.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
4 Feb 2010 #60
No skis, German names.

Lot's of 'skis in Germany....long history of polish immigration to Germany over the centuries!
Additionally Polonia in Germany is the biggest in Europe...


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