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Jaruzelski asked Soviets for assistance



Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Dec 2009  #31

Walesa made a contribution, but he was a SB snitch in the seventies. We know this for sure.

No. You may know it for sure but I am far far less convinced (for a number of reasons).

Describe Jaruzelski then. A Soviet yesman perhaps? A traitor? A Soviet patriot?

I think that he did what he believed to be best for Poland given the geo-political situation that Poland was in. I'd call him a realist (a neorealist to be exact). Poles tend not to like realists.

I'll get back on that as the doc you sent me is 230 pages long. Interesting though.

The particular article which you should read first starts on (or about) page 60.


OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
16 Dec 2009  #32

If the IPN was a tool of the SLD, I have the utmost faith that Kaczynski would be 'found' to be a registered agent.

You are an idiot who thinks that they understand Polish politics because you... what... have read a few articles? Not even idiots claim that IPN is a tool of SLD(new communists).

Given that the IPN has proved itself time and time again to be politically biased and wrapped up in politics, how can you trust a word they say?

You should stay out of discussions that don't concern you. Just because you happen to work in Poland doesn't qualify you to have understanding of Polish politics. You should really pause, look up what IPN does, and then speak up. Until then, you are making a fool out of yourself.

No. You may know it for sure but I am far far less convinced (for a number of reasons).

Great. Another foreigner pretending to understand Polish politics from English speaking sources. I can take you on on this one Harry. The 700 page book ( SB a Lech Walesa)written by Centkiwicz and Gontarczyk about agent "Bolek" (Wałęsa) is very definitive. Do disagree with these IPN historians if you can. The last I heard from you, you are unemployed and trying to write travel books about Poland. I have read this book, but have you?

I think that he did what he believed to be best for Poland given the geo-political situation that Poland was in. I'd call him a realist (a neorealist to be exact). Poles tend not to like realists.

There are different kind of Poles, Harry. The neo-communists, resembeling you, see Jaruzelski as a patriot or a realist. Then we have other Poles`who fought for independent and souverign Poland. The latter were hunted down and executed by the likes of Jaruzelski( I'll let you know when I'll arange a tour of Infrmacja Wojskowa prison in Warsaw so you can see who these people really were. The Polish Army officers as Pilecki and Fieldorf were interogated there, and the men who survived these interogations said Gestapo were like boyscouts in comparison).

The particular article which you should read first starts on (or about) page 60.

The whole article is interesting, but I am reading at least five books at the moment so it may take some time.
jonni 16 | 2,492    
16 Dec 2009  #33

written by Centkiwicz and Gontarczyk

Written by students who are members of PiS.

I am reading at least five books at the moment

Explains a lot, none of it positive.

edit

Have you met those kids? I have tee-shirts ten years older than them. Amazing. One day they'll have to start shaving, stop watching Dobranocki and stop writing small-minded and jejeune polemics about respected statesmen..
OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
16 Dec 2009  #34

Written by students who are members of PiS.

Daddy was a Party member and I'm sure you are doing well, communist filth.

and stop writing small-minded and jejeune polemics about respected statesmen..

No doubt to you Jaruzelski was a respected statesman. Komuch.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Dec 2009  #35

The 700 page book ( SB a Lech Walesa)written by Centkiwicz and Gontarczyk about agent "Bolek" (Wałęsa) is very definitive. Do disagree with these IPN historians if you can.

You're pushing the word 'historian' to its extreme limits there. Do you also describe David Irving as a historian? Or perhaps I'd better not ask

But let's run with your line of thought, let's say that there are documents in the archives which say Walesa was an agent. If those documents do exist, why:

a) Didn't the commies use them against Walesa when he was a pain in their arse?
b) Why didn't Walesa use the five years that he was president to make very sure that the archives had been scrubbed very clean? Instead of the half-arsed effort the 'historians' claim he made.

And why does the deputy director of the IPN, Maria Dmochowksa, say publicly that the book is part of a witch-hunt? Or should we only believe some people from the IPN and disbelieve other more senior people?

The last I heard from you, you are unemployed and trying to write travel books about Poland.

You most certainly never heard that from me. The last time I was unemployed was before I went to university. These days my problem is more being over-employed, I average 50 hours a week at my job (which more than keeps me in cat food, cigarettes, booze and steaks thank you). I'm not trying to write travel books: I have written them and am working on the next one, although I only take commission jobs these days.

The neo-communists, resembeling you, see Jaruzelski as a patriot or a realist.

It would be a lot better if you could possibly try to debate what I say, rather than what I do not say. I certainly do not recall describing Jaruzelski as a patriot. As for whether he was a realist, difficult times make for difficult choices. Few would call somebody a patriot if they were ready to drop nuclear bombs on his own country. But I'd certainly say that you are a Polish patriot despite you yourself being very ready to do that exact thing if you were ordered to do it.
jonni 16 | 2,492    
16 Dec 2009  #36

1jola

There's a certain type of person who, when they lose an argument, start to throw insults. None of them accurate.

Though for the record:

1) My father wasn't a Communist Party member (he votes UKIP nowadays, I believe, or is at least threatening to).

2) I am doing very well, thank you.

3) Jaruzelski "was" ('is'', perhaps fits better) respected by many - his party had over three million Poles in it. Even people who hated his politics say he "was no Ceaucescu".

4) No, I am not a communist.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
17 Dec 2009  #37

You're pushing the word 'historian' to its extreme limits there. Do you also describe David Irving as a historian? Or perhaps I'd better not ask

Typical Harry statement. The Polish historians in question have doctorates and are well respected; Erving,? he isn't an historian as far as I know. Cheap shot as usual on your part.

But let's run with your line of thought, let's say that there are documents in the archives which say Walesa was an agent. If those documents do exist, why:
a) Didn't the commies use them against Walesa when he was a pain in their arse?

Because there is a good chance that he was either an agent encore, or he was useful to their cause. He was so afraid of lustration that he organized a coup d'etat during the brief rule of Olszewski in 1993. Dispicable character.

b) Why didn't Walesa use the five years that he was president to make very sure that the archives had been scrubbed very clean? Instead of the half-arsed effort the 'historians' claim he made.

You are not paying attention. He did just that, and it is a fact he used his position to request TW "Bolek" files and did not return them. Also, when you understand how SB files were organized, it was difficult to destroy all the cross-references in the archives. There is more than sufficient amount of evidence to confirm his collaboration. I know you are not interested in reading the available material concerning this issue; you'd rather keep up the myth. He threatened to sue - we are still waiting.

It would be a lot better if you could possibly try to debate what I say, rather than what I do not say. I certainly do not recall describing Jaruzelski as a patriot.

You have yet to say what you call him, but you do say what you don't call him. Weak.

There's a certain type of person who, when they lose an argument, start to throw insults. None of them accurate.

Harry tends to do that often but he is more careful nowadays since he knows it is difficult to work with broken arms.

Jaruzelski "was" ('is'', perhaps fits better) respected by many - his party had over three million Poles in it. Even people who hated his politics say he "was no Ceaucescu".

I know he has many appologists. Since you understand Polish, tell me, what do you think of this Soviet agent's career? You did watch the film I posted the link to, didn't you?

No, I am not a communist.

You certainly sound like one.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
17 Dec 2009  #38

Harry tends to do that often but he is more careful nowadays since he knows it is difficult to work with broken arms.

You're pretty brave for somebody who hides behind anonymity and never says where he will be. My name is Harry and I often post about where I can be found in Warsaw. That I don't call you a traitor anymore has nothing to do with your threats, it's that I've realised that in your mind you most probably were standing ready to do what you thought was best for Poland when you joined an organisation which would have dropped nuclear bombs on Poland if so ordered.

Typical Harry statement. The Polish historians in question have doctorates and are well respected;

And a typical statement from you: one which completely ignores the facts posted. Those 'historians' produced a piece of work which the deputy director of the IPN, Maria Dmochowksa, says publicly that the book is part of a witch-hunt. But you ignore that point as you ignore all others which don't fit your world view.

You have yet to say what you call him, but you do say what you don't call him. Weak.

That's a pathetic lie even by the standards of Sokrates. Right here in this thread I say what I call him.[
polishforums.com/history-poland-34/jaruzelski-asked-soviets-assistance-40601/#msg820378

Also, when you understand how SB files were organized, it was difficult to destroy all the cross-references in the archives. There is more than sufficient amount of evidence to confirm his collaboration.

Pity we have no idea if any of that information is genuine (given that, as they confirm, the SB routinely forged documents and that there have been some 14 years for his opponents to stuff the archive with documents).

I know you are not interested in reading the available material concerning this issue; you'd rather keep up the myth.

Finished that material which blows away your claim that the Soviets had no plans to invade? I personally have very little time for Walesa, I really don't like him at all: I don't like his politics, I don't like his morals, I don't like his religion, there are very few things I do like about him.

he was useful to their cause.

Walesa was useful to the cause of the Polish communists? After you with the crack pipe please.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
17 Dec 2009  #39

You're pretty brave for somebody who hides behind anonymity and never says where he will be. My name is Harry and I often post about where I can be found in Warsaw.

We outed you a long time ago. Besides, it is pretty stupid to insult someone when they know where to find you but don't know them.

Walesa was useful to the cause of the Polish communists? After you with the crack pipe please.

When you sell information to SB about the oposition, you are useful to them. Later, he was instrumental in allowing them a soft landing. They are all well placed now.
plk123 8 | 4,168    
17 Mar 2010  #40

Since we know now that the Soviets had no intentions to invade in 1981

maybe or maybe not but i can tell you for sure that i saw russian soldiers stationed at warsaw train stations and other places like that in the summer of '81... asked or not, there was definitely a threat of them coming over the border and instilling "order"

i wish you'd all drop the personal insults and i also wish you'd link some of this other info you all keep sending to each other some other way.. kills the exploration of this subject for me.. thanks
Marek11111 9 | 827    
19 Mar 2010  #41

1jola:
Since we know now that the Soviets had no intentions to invade in 1981

that is why in summer of 1981 I seen trains with russian troops and tanks going west, maybe they ware going on vacation.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
20 Mar 2010  #42

Maybe, you should had asked them.

There is no doubt that you could had seen Soviet troop movements in Poland till 1993, well into the IIIRP, as there were tens of thousands of them stationed in Poland.

Look, based on documents, the Russians wanted Jaruzelski to handle the problem. He, being a dedicated Soviet servant, and I hope we don't have to argue this point, did what he had to keep the system alive, certainly not for the benefit on the nation. He asked for help; they refused. The rest of the events we know for sure.

Jaruzelski was a traitor of the worse kind, and only recently historians have published documents detailing his career in Poland at the service of the Soviets which started in the 40's when he was chasing AK soldiers. We know their fate.
Marek11111 9 | 827    
22 Mar 2010  #43

There is no doubt that you could had seen Soviet troop movements in Poland till 1993

the placment of troops was taken place not movement of troops they ware there just in case marshal law fail. Russian troops ware moved to Poland to make sure the outcome was the result that soviets wanted.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,787    
22 Mar 2010  #44

Russian troops ware moved to Poland to make sure the outcome was the result that soviets wanted.

Actually, the historical evidence suggests that while Poland was on the verge of being invaded by the Warsaw Pact in late 1980, the tide had turned against invasion in 1981. Jaruzelski actually sought assistance from the Soviets, which was denied - Poland had to sort it out herself.

Incidentally, this is old news - it's all detailed in Timothy Garton Ash's book about Solidarity. Nothing new has really came to light since about Jaruzelski, bar the usual nonsense 'found'.
Babinich 1 | 457    
23 Mar 2010  #45

1jola:

How is Ryszard Kuklinski viewed by Poles?

A great book was written about the man...

A Secret Life: The Polish Officer, His Covert Mission, and the Price He Paid to Save His Country by Benjamin Weiser
plk123 8 | 4,168    
23 Mar 2010  #46

the placment of troops was taken place not movement of troops they ware there just in case marshal law fail. Russian troops ware moved to Poland to make sure the outcome was the result that soviets wanted.

that is what i think too. there is no denying of the russkies being in poland in force in 81.. whether they had the heart to "invade" or not.. they were there to at least oversee.. this does not excuse jaruzelski's behavior tho.. i just don't think it was all him like some want to believe..
OP 1jola 14 | 1,884    
23 Mar 2010  #47

How is Ryszard Kuklinski viewed by Poles?

Generally, a hero. He would only be less to people who supported the communist system.

They murdered his two sons.

i just don't think it was all him like some want to believe..

By the chain of command it was.
Marek11111 9 | 827    
23 Mar 2010  #48

no one knows the chain of command as we know he was outrank by someone in Moscow.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
23 Mar 2010  #49

Incidentally, this is old news - it's all detailed in Timothy Garton Ash's book about Solidarity. Nothing new has really came to light since about Jaruzelski, bar the usual nonsense 'found'.

Well, other than all the information about Operation Krkonose, which pretty much proves the Soviet plan to invade Poland (unless the Czech regime had decided to invade Poland themselves without the agreement of the Soviets and had lied to their army about it or unless the Czech army are making the whole thing up to help out the man who led the 1968 Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia).
Fredy00 - | 1    
9 Mar 2013  #50

Merged: Poland's politics with Czechoslovakian compadres

Hi, i looking for photos from meeting of Polish and Czechoslovakian politics from communist era. I need photo and source (newspaper, books).
Thanks for help, i want use this files in Wikipedia!
Looker - | 946    
16 Jun 2014  #51

Hi, i looking for photos from meeting of Polish and Czechoslovakian politics from communist era. I need photo and source (newspaper, books).

Bierut with Gottwald

Gierek with Husak

Gierek, Husak

Jaruzelski with Husak

Jaruzelski with Jasek:

Sources on demand ;)




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