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Insoluble Judaeo-Polish imbroglio?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2011 #1
I know similar threads have appeared here perennially but my question is whether ongoing mutual Judaeo-Polish recrimiantion will ever be soluble.
I have tried on occasion to present a balance-sheet of mutual wrongs, pulling no punches and thinking the facts could speak for themselves. But even facts seem to be unaccetpable. The result was that Poles/Polonians said it was Polanophobic to even mention numerus clausus or uni beatings in the '30s, let alone Jedwabne or Kielce. And Jews regarded any mention of their disproportionate representataiton in key economic fields or their collabroation with the Soviet enemy as anti-Semitic. Has anyone had any luck in getting both sides to admit their mutual transgressions? I was at All Saints Church, Warsaw's biggest, when the entire Polish Epsicopate on their knees begged forgiveness for the Jedwabne pogrom. But has there ever been an apology for Naliboki or the Berman gang?
rybnik 18 | 1,461
19 Feb 2011 #2
my question is whether ongoing mutual Judaeo-Polish recrimiantion will ever be soluble

I've agonized myself over this exact question and have come to the realization that it won't happen in our lifetime. Too bad.
alexw68
19 Feb 2011 #3
People. We nearly - but not quite - have before us here an improbable and, dare I say it, beautiful transformation in the hitherto tendentious old bore that is Polonius3. In a shocking departure from the writer's standard modus operandi, the current thread opens with four lines of balanced and open questioning designed and guaranteed to elicit a broad base of opinion from all walks of this forum's life. Even the obligatory Lubyanka-esque coinage (Judaeo-Polish imbroglio) is limited to a sole occurrence and lacks the teeth-grinding awkwardness with which we have all become so familiar in this writer's oeuvre.

And yet, as the saying goes, you can take the boy out of the swamp, but you can't take the swamp out of the boy. In the last line and a half, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory, and a great crash is heard across the Universe as 4 billion foreheads are slapped as one.

Let's see how this happened in slow motion, folks, and draw the necessary and obvious conclusions about how to post a lead question on a forum:

I know similar threads have appeared here perennially but my question is whether ongoing mutual Judaeo-Polish recrimiantion will ever be soluble.

- balanced. This is promising.

The result was that Poles/Polonians said it was Polanophobic to even mention numerus clausus or uni beatings in the '30s, let alone Jedwabne or Kielce. And Jews regarded any mention of their disproportionate representataiton in key economic fields or their collabroation with the Soviet enemy as anti-Semitic.

Oh - even better: evidence for the prosecution and the defence. We've basically set up a winning forehand here.

I was at All Saints Church, Warsaw's biggest, when the entire Polish Epsicopate on their knees begged forgiveness for the Jedwabne pogrom. But has there ever been an apology for Naliboki or the Berman gang?

And there it goes. An open spirit of rational enquiry f*cked up in two short sentences.

P3: What is it about the term 'loaded question' that you so consistently and unerringly fail to understand?
Albanaich 2 | 31
20 Feb 2011 #4
No one wants to know or get involved - its history, and for good or bad, the Germans did achieve a 'Final Solution' to the Jewish Problem in Poland.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2011 #5
I wonder if Alex68 realises that:
1) He did not advance the question raised a single iota and provided not a stitch of substantive input;
2) He put on a typical display of florid rhetoric and what he apparently regards as clever and witty repartees; and
3) He preferred to take the ad hominem tack, which is the lowest form of debate, but ideal for those who have nothing meaningful to say.
Harry
20 Feb 2011 #6
I was at All Saints Church, Warsaw's biggest, when the entire Polish Epsicopate on their knees begged forgiveness for the Jedwabne pogrom.

Really? When was that then? I happen to know that church very very well indeed, I walk past it every day on my way from the synagogue to the office. Given that I was in the very near neighbourhood of that church on that particular day, perhaps you could tell us what the weather was like that Sunday?

And perhaps you can also explain why your eyesight is so bad: last time I checked Gadecki was not the "entire Polish Epsicopate". Perhaps the newspaper report you read was a touch over enthusiastic with the hyperbole? Given that you were in America that May Sunday.....
alexw68
20 Feb 2011 #7
1) He did not advance the question raised a single iota and provided not a stitch of substantive input;
2) He put on a typical display of florid rhetoric and what he apparently regards as clever and witty repartees; and
3) He preferred to take the ad hominem tack, which is the lowest form of debate, but ideal for those who have nothing meaningful to say.

1) I did, however, correctly point up that in the home straight, you inserted an assumption into your question that, in the interests of asking a question rather than substituting diatribe for dialogue, as is your wont, would have been better left to subsequent respondents.

2) Pot, meet Kettle.

3) The issues with 99% of your posts, my friend, are a) your unfortunate stylistic tic in the direction of the kind of language Orwell satirised years ago; and b) the ever-present feeling that you have already answered your own question and therefore have no interest whatsoever in whatever answers may present themselves. It then becomes, unfortunately, not just about the facts - which rather undermines your stated (and, indeed, noble) plea that all sides should be putting their cards on the table, and makes ad hominem just a trifle difficult to avoid.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2011 #8
So, all the clever and witty rhetoric aside, how can the problem be resolved? Are horseblinkers and mutual entrenchment inevitable? Shouldn't Poles be able to fess up to the part their compatriots in Jedwabne and Kielce? Shouldn't Jews face up to the Naliboki and Koniuchy massacres in which Poles were killed by Jewish Soviet partisans. Those are onyl examples of mutual hostility, but mutual apologies could go a long way towards clearing the air of suspicion and resentment surrounding this entire relam of two-way relations. That could be all the easier if one recalled that many of those recriminiations were rooted in the machinations of two evil dictatorships.
yehudi 1 | 433
20 Feb 2011 #9
y question is whether ongoing mutual Judaeo-Polish recrimiantion will ever be soluble.

Is it really important anymore? Our two peoples are no longer living together. Our two countries get along fine.
vetala - | 382
20 Feb 2011 #10
I propose to solve this matter in the same way we've solved the problem of Polish-Ukrainian relations: by not talking about it (with the exception of nationalists, of course)
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
20 Feb 2011 #11
broken link removed

Is it really important anymore?

Can we not just say that all this happened in another time and place(even if geographically thats not literal), thats not to say forget but the place for forgivness and accusations is not our generations to take a hold of.

We insult all those who suffered by carrying on petty squables over who was right/wrong, who did what to who and who did it first because no matter how rational we all can claim to be those sort of arguments/debates about who started it always seem to lead back a couple of thousand years . Italians and North africans dont seem to worry about carthage v rome....

ps,Yehudi,theres a very interesting drama being shown here in the UK at the minute, The Promise, filmed in your neck of the woods,hopefully it will educate a few people(and I count myself as one of them) about a few "issues" between britain and proto Israel leading up to '47.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2011 #12
Agreed. These things are best left unmentioned. Then why in hell are the Gros$$e$, $piegelman$s and other money-grubber$ constantly dredging up what should have long since been laid to rest.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
20 Feb 2011 #13
You answered it in your post....$$$$$$$$$$$££££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
trouble is,its an industry....not to say i equate it to the mythical holocast industry of popular internet fame.....but what I mean is we have people who are academicaly focused on this breif period of time who are under presure either to be productive and come up with something new to keep getting funding or to sell a few books ......

There is an argument for all these books to be available as atleast they may counter balance the almost endless obsession joe public seams to have with Hitler and the Waffen SS......
yehudi 1 | 433
20 Feb 2011 #14
heres a very interesting drama being shown here in the UK at the minute, The Promise, filmed in your neck of the woods,

I didn't see it or hear of it till now. From what I see i the website, it's telling the arab narrative of what happened. It might be good television drama but don't assume that it's history.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
20 Feb 2011 #15
Dont jump to conclusions,it tells all sides of the story,arab,british,irgun,haganah,neutral,impassioned,unlucky good,bad,ugly....
But it saddens me that you degrade the telling of the Arabs story. Why is this? Is their story less important than anyone elses? Are they subhuman and undeserving of a voice?

If anything so far it has been far to soft on the terrorists of the irgun,but thats channel four for you......weep and wail if the dead are jews or muslims but dont show too much pity for conscript soldiers fresh from fighting nazi germany getting vaporised by Sabra stay at homes.....

EDIT..."Saddens me"...no,infact it fcuking Angers me. Its that same old fcuking arrogence . Is it ************** people off enough untill they cant stand you and then screem anti semitism?

Do they teach you guys this sh!t along with the prayers for Bar mitzfahs?
So,Arabs story must be made up,where as everyone knows Jews never ever lie and are always the only fcuking victims........
See,this is why,in general the poles fcuking hate you lot, at least in my country most jews,by fact of them being here,arent stupid zionist fascists.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
20 Feb 2011 #16
Is it really important anymore? Our two peoples are no longer living together. Our two countries get along fine.

They say the two European countries that have the best relations with Israel are Germany and Poland.

The Polish president who died in the Smolensk plane crash was highly respected and liked by Israeli and Jewish leaders. They were among the first to show their condolences to him.
jonni 16 | 2,485
20 Feb 2011 #17
president who died in the Smolensk

Shame he appointed a Minister of Education so tainted and malicious that the Israeli gov't refused to deal with him.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
20 Feb 2011 #18
I didn't see it or hear of it till now. From what I see i the website, it's telling the arab narrative of what happened. It might be good television drama but don't assume that it's history.

Ah because the colonized aren't allowed to make history. That remains the purview of the colonials..... What a load of garbage! Hey Yehudi you Zionists better start accommodating the Arabs you rule, as well as the Arabs you refuse to let return to their homes in Palestine, because there is a wave of democratic revolution sweeping the Middle East and you are not going to have corrupt Arab dictators around anymore that will take money to suppress their people's desire for justice for their Palestinian brethren. You have relied upon stories of Polish Anti-Semitism for too long to justify your disgusting racist colonial project in Palestine. From the river to the sea all of Palestine will be free!
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
20 Feb 2011 #19
From the river to the sea all of Palestine will be free!

Why? Simple really,pull back to 47 Border,halt ilegall settlements or at the very least pull back IDF support for them.
And then maybe go back to the old ways of the jews and arabs more or less rubbing along just fine(generally only having to worry about the occasional Christian crusade or two...) .

Of course thats a pipe dream,too much bloodshed and injustice for that to be feasable and 70 years of persecution complex worship hasnt helped,either "side".
vetala - | 382
20 Feb 2011 #20
Shame he appointed a Minister of Education so tainted and malicious that the Israeli gov't refused to deal with him.

Poles hated him too. We have something to bond over, at least.
PolishTraitor - | 20
20 Feb 2011 #21
Then why in hell are the Gros$$e$, $piegelman$s and other money-grubber$ constantly dredging up what should have long since been laid to rest.

And why are the likes of you lying about seeing a single priest apologise?

If you want to talk about $$$, how about you pay your taxe$$$?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
21 Feb 2011 #22
Quite pro Polish (as it should be)
polishgreatness.com/PolishJewishRelations.html
MediaWatch 10 | 945
21 Feb 2011 #23
Shame he appointed a Minister of Education so tainted and malicious that the Israeli gov't refused to deal with him.

Its a shame that you would take this opportunity to only look for negative things to say about the Polish president who died. If you hate the guy so much, shouldn't you be quietly rejoicing that he's not around anymore and leave it at that?
jonni 16 | 2,485
21 Feb 2011 #24
shouldn't you be quietly rejoicing that he's not around anymore

Well, you brought him into the thread. I tend to leave the rejoicing to the Poles - however we are discussing Polish/Jewish relations, and an Education minister who is a member of a party with, to say the least, a chequered history is very relevant to that. Don't you think so? It isn't often that a country refuse to deal with a specific minister. But nevertheless, LK appointed him.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
21 Feb 2011 #25
So you're talking about this guy?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Giertych

According to wikipedia it was basically the anarchists and leftists who were protesting against him. But let's assume for arguments sake he's a bad guy who's anti-Jewish. I'm sure one can find his Jewish couterparts in Israel or in Jewish circles who have reciprocal feelings about Poles.

But as smart as you are jonni, in case you didn't notice, I was trying to put a positive light on Jewish-Polish relations, since as you probably know, they haven't exactly been perfect over the years LOL I was trying to be constructive and positive.

Its way too easy for Poles to find "bad Jews" and for Jews to find "bad Poles". I thought I would be politically incorrect and buck that trend into negativity; and was trying to find something or somebody who in and of himself was mostly helpful to Jewish-Polish relations. But if you want to take the delicate topic of Jewish-Polish relations into the too easily available direction of negativity.......well.....I think that's kind of sad. That would be too easy.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,439
21 Feb 2011 #26
From the river to the sea all of Palestine will be free!

Free of Jews you surely mean?

Tell me more about the fate of the Jews under Arab rule? What will await them after all of Palestine is free?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
21 Feb 2011 #27
There needs to be equal rights for everyone living between the River Jordan and the sea. The world can see what the fate of Arabs under Zionist rule is. Arabs in the "Jewish State" are second class citizens and Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have no rights at all. Ethno-supremacist states are a racist anachronism. If the Zionists wanted an exclusively Jewish state they shouldn't have settled in Palestine where most of the indigenous population is not Jewish.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,439
21 Feb 2011 #28
There needs to be equal rights for everyone living between the River Jordan and the sea.

And why do they have to live in the same country?
There would be no country of distinctly jewish character anymore if Jews were forced to become a minority in an arabic country anymore.
Your ideal is a rosy one which won't work in reality!

Arabs in the "Jewish State" are second class citizens and Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have no rights at all.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Arab citizens of Israel[2], Palestinian Israelis or Israeli Palestinians are the legal Israeli citizens or residents whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Arab.[3]

They have ALL the rights!

If the Zionists wanted an exclusively Jewish state they shouldn't have settled in Palestine where most of the indigenous population is not Jewish.

Well, it was their ancestral homeland. Where else should they have settled?
Why should they settle where they even less belonged?

Now back to the Jews living under Arab rule...
If you have an idea how they have to suffer under arab rule you wouldn't propose that as a solution for them! Or you hate them so much that you want that...who knows.

Be that as it may...Israel exists and it's jewish dominated character is their only guarantee for not becoming persecuted dhimmis again.
Send the blame for that dreary reality back to where it belongs, to the Arabs!
After all it's THEIR countries which are unable to guarantee religious tolerance and democracy!

/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

.... In 1945 there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya which was once around 3 percent Jewish, the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain. The largest communities of Jews in a Muslim land exist in the non-Arab countries of Iran and Turkey; both, however, are much smaller than they historically have been...

You want Adolf's work fulfilled? Go on, put them under arab rule again...build your "free Palestine" and in 20 years at most you are "free" of them for good! Congrats!
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Feb 2011 #29
POLAND'S BISHOPS ISSUE APOLOGY TO JEWS

WARSAW, May 28, 01 (CWNews.com) - Poland's Catholic bishops on Sunday sought forgiveness from God and Jews for wrongs committed by Catholics against Jews during World War II, especially the 1941 massacre of Jews in northeastern Poland that had until recently been blamed on the Nazis.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
21 Feb 2011 #30
Israel exists and it's jewish dominated character is their only guarantee for not becoming persecuted dhimmis again.

I am not proposing either Jewish rule or Arab rule but democracy where everyone has equal rights regardless of ethnicity. If you think a Jewish supremacist state is so moral and that it somehow rights the horrible wongs perpatrated by German racists against Jews then put a Jewish dominated state in Gemany. Palestine is a multi-ethnic place. Jewish domination is not the answer but equality is.

After all it's THEIR countries which are unable to guarantee religious tolerance and democracy!

you need to examine your racist assumptions about Arabs. How well did Germany guarantee religious tolerance and democracy in the 1930's and 1940's? How well is the Zionist entity in Palestine guaranteeing it today, when Arab refugees with the "wrong" religion are not permitted to return to their homes? Why don't you say that Jews are unable to guarantee religious tolerance and democracy too? I believe all humans regardless of ethnicity or religion are capable of tolerance and democracy.


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