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Should we glorify Polish secondary female characters from history?


Varsovian 92 | 634
10 Jan 2013 #1
Queens, as monarchs, obviously get their fair share of coverage in historical studies.

Should Poland discover more Marie Curies, to advance the cause of wimmin's rights?

When I was a kid, Florence Nightingale was done in a lesson, but that was about it. We didn't cover Winston Churchill at all. Nowadays in England, you can scarcely set foot in a school without knowing copious amounts about a mixed-race boarding house keeper called Mary Seacole, who served good food and drink in the Crimea and helped out occasionally with the wounded. Doubtless, a decent enough women - Florence Nightingale gave her some money when she fell on hard times - but ...

Famous Polish women to glorify - errm ... Ewa Kłobukowska?
Barney 15 | 1,516
10 Jan 2013 #2
History is more than a list of kings and battles.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
10 Jan 2013 #3
I think the thing with Mary Seacole is that she has been overlooked for a long time... and she's mixed race, showing it wasn't just whitey who did all the work in the empire.

She also did a lot of work in Jamaica. Very interesting lady.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Seacole

What I don't like is the idea she is promoted at the expense of learning about Florence Nightingale. Both should be taught together.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #4
The whole tone of your post is unpleasant Varsovian. The correct spelling of women is 'women' not 'wimmin' which is pure 1970/80s and I suspect you are using it for a cheap laugh.

Women have been written out of history, that is fact.(except for monarchs as you say)
I do kind of agree that Mary Seacole has been 'done to death' ( there was even a mural of her where I used to live in South London) but for years she was ignored because of her colour, when in fact she did a whole lot more nursing than Florence Nightingale ever did. did you know that most of Flo's patients died and she spent years lying around in bed being depressed about it? no? well that is because I suspect you know very little about either of them.

written history has traditionally been all about white men, dates of battles etc.
for example when we learn about ww2 at school we were shown Polish cavalry gallopping at tanks. IMO that was a cut and paste job.

the fact that more or less every woman in Berlin between the age of 8 and 80 was raped when the Russians arrived is of no interest to your average male historian.

let us deconstruct the word 'history' - HIS- STORY - not herstory is it?
as barney said, many of us do not realise that history is more than a list of kings and battles.
undoubtedly there have been heroic women in all countries, consigned to the bin of 'history'.
i did read a book about a fascinating Polish woman who was a spy in the war, damned if i can remember her name.
ok i couldnt find her but i found another!!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystyna_Skarbek
Barney 15 | 1,516
10 Jan 2013 #5
Should Poland discover more Marie Curies, to advance the cause of wimmin's rights?

Marie Curie is an historical figure for her work nothing else.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #6
exactly Barney - not a 'special case' to 'advance the cause of wimmin's rights' (jesus varsovian - get a grip) - just a scientific genius along with Einstein etc., not a 'secondary character'!!!

interestingly I attended a very famous girls' school that was at the forefront of women's education in the nineteenth century, and still had the impression

that Maria Curie was some kind of assistant to her husband.....I think it was the tone of the history books more than the school though.
zetigrek
10 Jan 2013 #7
I see another cultural difference in what is taught on history lessons in Poland and in your country. In Poland kids don't learn about people on history lessons. There's no role models presented. Teaching history in Poland is purely about events, not biographies of merited people.

for example when we learn about ww2 at school we were shown Polish cavalry gallopping at tanks. IMO that was a cut and paste job.

What did you think back then when you heard about it? In what context was it used?
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #8
let us deconstruct the word 'history' - HIS- STORY - not herstory is it?

Lols, you tell the OP off for using *wimmin* as its outdated 1970s rhetoric then you come out with that nonsense ...... I suppose next you will be saying that Woman comes from Woo a Man......:)

The simple fact is,99% of the world gets written out of History,its only ever the movers and shakers who get remembered and frankly for hundreds of years thats been men.

What did you think back then when you heard about it?

Dont get that topic going,again, FFS, EVERYONE who cares knows that its partly propaganda...........But, I know the photo Roz means,and its not a cut and paste job at all, its that famous one of the regiment of lancers on white horse wearing French helmets in a pre war army exercise.......its in all the school books. And does Im afraid sum up the fact that the Polish Army of 1939 was well behind the german Army (they are illustrated by lots of Panzers or Stukas).



rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #9
Lols, you tell the OP off for using *wimmin* as its outdated 1970s rhetoric then you come out with that nonsense ....

well done isthatu you have won the 'spot the obvious' prize!!!!
you win any two items of your choice from your nearest Oxfam!
please apply to me for details.

What did you think back then when you heard about it? In what context was it used?

interesting question zeti, it was shown re the start of ww2 and at the time I thought.......wow.....Poland didn't stand a chance....;(

not sure that was the pic, tho isthatu, it was actually a moving picture with Polish cavalry gallopping at the tanks with sabres.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #10
You had moving pictures in your school books? Wow, you did go to a Posh school didnt you? We shared books between 3 or 4 lol

BTW,that picture comes from film footage.
I still say ,for bored 14/15 year olds it does sum up Polands chances against the (at the time,obviously) modern German forces and the Blitzkrieg.

Why should British kids spend more time on the subject when the Blitz and Battle of Britain (not fekking Bitwa England as you guys call it...grrrrr) gets covered in maybe one 1 hour lesson?

What you younger Poles need to realise is that before 2004 the perception of Poles,especially the war time generations was very very high in Britain,everyone had a good story about some Poles they knew or had served with,half our war films had brave Poles in them etc.

Things have only changed once todays moaning ,whining, self sorrying (is that a word lol) generation has turned up claiming all sorts of rubbish.
( Yes,our British youth are just as pathetic compared to our own war time generation too though...)

ps, Did you watch Spies of Warsaw last night? Cant wait for the moaning and ******** to start on here once it gets shown in Poland......:)
Barney 15 | 1,516
10 Jan 2013 #11
In Poland kids don't learn about people on history lessons. There's no role models presented. Teaching history in Poland is purely about events, not biographies of merited people.

Does that not make lessons dull?
I cant see how you can teach history without giving some kind of social context ie why things happened.

I think it was the tone of the history books more than the school though.

The books used are crucial, I've seen some history text books which are just wrong usually the ones that appeal to the box ticker type teacher.
poland_
10 Jan 2013 #12
wiki/Krystyna_Skarbek

She is featured in the book by Alan Furst 'Spies of Warsaw' although under the name Anna. The book was dramatised by the BBC and will show this friday on TVP HD
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #13
no silly it was one of those reel to reel jobs - (showing my age!) - you know , darkened room, whirr whirr, all v. exciting

Famous Polish women to glorify - errm ... Ewa Kłobukowska?

and why have you dug up a famous woman whose gender was...dubious, varsovian?
to show that 'real' women cannot achieve?
Suwka - | 21
10 Jan 2013 #14
, it was actually a moving picture with Polish cavalry gallopping at the tanks with sabres.

oh. it was Wajda's "Lotna", and he repeated a german lie i.a. from the picture „Feldzug in Polen"! There was only three "big" [and several smoller] battles of polish cavalry with Wehrmacht: Krojanty, battle on the river Bzura near Brochow and under Wólka Węglowa [ Poznań Army], but polish soldiers were fighting with german infantry and cavalry, there were some skirmishes with troopers, who were outside of tanks.
gumishu 12 | 6,082
10 Jan 2013 #15
Battle of Britain (not fekking Bitwa England as you guys call it...grrrrr

you call us Eastern Europe we call the battle Bitwa o Anglię - tit for tat ;)
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #16
The book was dramatised by the BBC and will show this friday on TVP HD

Gaze in wonder at dog sh!t free streets and walls free of Graffitti ,great job location scouts/set hands :)

The first part was on last night on the BBC :)

Back to topic, no need to invent female historically important people,just do a bit of research,trouble is,they tend not to have been involved in nice,TV documentry friendly activities like war and destruction so no chance for archive footage of tanks and guns n stuff.....

you call us Eastern Europe we call the battle Bitwa o Anglię - tit for tat ;)

Actually,it seems most of the muppets call you *easter europeans*.... ;)
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #18
What was,my comment on women in history or the amazingly clean pavements in Spies of Warsaw ? ;)
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #19
women in history I meant!
no it wasn't that one...it was black and white and silent and with that kind of old fashioned jerky film style, just the cavalry rushing at the tanks.
zetigrek
10 Jan 2013 #20
isthatu2

I didn't ask you for an opinion.

I cant see how you can teach history without giving some kind of social context ie why things happened.

That's why I didn't like history. It didn't make too much sense for me.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #21
I didn't ask you for an opinion.

So what? Who are you anyway? You are the female version of Pawian IMHO, come here thinking you are the only one with an opinion and the arbiter of everyone else on here,news flash,want to be a power tripper become a MOD,untill then,STFU.

Its not your thread,you have nothing to say on who can or cannot have an opinion,especially when you dont seem to add anything yourself being a self confessed poor student of history with little interest in the subject.

no it wasn't that one...it was black and white and silent and with that kind of old fashioned jerky film style, just the cavalry rushing at the tanks.

Didnt think so but had to check after Suwka posted her comment .
Pretty sure its that footage of the pre war exercises that I posted the still from.
But......I have it on good authority (ie, a curator of the Polish Army Museum in Warsaw) that the cavalry did indeed now and again use horses against tanks,just not in the old fashioned,cinematic style of a head on charge but during Night Raids,and bundles of Grenades were used,not Lances.

But,seeing as there were no women in the cavalry ........
next topic lol......just really trying hard to think of historical Polish women (not Mrs Currie) NOT involved in some war or other and Im really trying to get away from war war war all the time :)
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #22
yes i was just thinking much the same, i just used the famous cavalry/tanks thing to illustrate how much of history is BS.......
ok so we need illustrious Polish women who are not spies, hermaphrodites or Marie Curie.
anyone?
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #23
anyone?

Anyone but zetigrek, I dont want her opinion ;)
zetigrek
10 Jan 2013 #24
Its not your thread,you have nothing to say on who can or cannot have an opinion,especially when you dont seem to add anything yourself being a self confessed poor student of history with little interest in the subject.

It's not in the history section, thus it's not a history thread. The section is work/study and the thread regards educational practices in Poland. Since I was educated in Poland I have a valid point to say, while the things YOU wrote are all OFF TOPIC.

Don't answer to my posts please. It's really disturbing to read things you usually write. And my question to rozumienic was absolutely innocent and I didn't plan to carry on it after receiving a reply.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
10 Jan 2013 #25
anyone?

j

t was black and white and silent and with that kind of old fashioned jerky film style, just the cavalry rushing at the tanks.

German propaganda movie!
David_18 68 | 982
10 Jan 2013 #26
Illustrious woman, pity she was the last of the family. (Those Who Trespass against Us: One Woman's War against the Nazis)

I'm gonna buy her book this month, been delaying my purchase for years now.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,872
10 Jan 2013 #27
wow thanks Ironside, good one -
- yes a propaganda movie, exactly -
Trevek 26 | 1,702
10 Jan 2013 #28
Why should British kids spend more time on the subject when the Blitz and Battle of Britain (not fekking Bitwa England as you guys call it...grrrrr) gets covered in maybe one 1 hour lesson?

Apparently the UK government is going to spend millions teaching about WW1 over the next few years, including field trips, projects and such.

Funny how they practically ignored it for a long time.

you win any two items of your choice from your nearest Oxfam!

Why not a "Sue Ryder" shop?
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Jan 2013 #29
It's not in the history section, thus it's not a history thread

The topic is women in HISTORY....honest,thats not hard to grasp as a History topic is it?

And my question to rozumienic was absolutely innocent

Who said it wasnt?
Paranod Pole stereotype alert....what is it with some of you,seriously,its like a genuine psychological condition with so many of you. Reading insults into everything.......

Don't answer to my posts please.

Oh do shut up love,its an open forum.
You pop up out of nowhere and butt into a conversation I was having with Roz, a poster who I have *known* on here for years and one who knows to take my more inflammetory posts with a whole bag of salt .....you on the other hand just seem to have taken offence that I was one of those who showed you are bonkers if you think British people cannot spot Poles at 20 paces here in the UK,get over it ,you lot spot *tourists * in Poland easily enough,thats why I keep having to shove little Polish Chavs hands away from my pockets and bags on your countries transport systems.
David_18 68 | 982
10 Jan 2013 #30
you lot spot *tourists * in Poland easily enough,thats why I keep having to shove little Polish Chavs hands away from my pockets and bags on your countries transport systems.

Polish polish polish polish.... stop be sucha nationality freak.

Got nothing better to do? Or did you join the forum to nag on everything polish? Troll.


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