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How come Polonization never works?


gregy741 4 | 1,204
31 Oct 2015 #61
Hahahaa. Good try Gregy, but the reality was that Poland very much did care about it in the II RP.

geezzz delph...second republic was 20 century...wayyyy to late to forcefully polonize any nation in Europe...with the birth of nationalism in 19 century in Europe,it would be hard to do so without ethnic cleansing or some drastic methods.

Poland had long period of dominance in EE from 15 century till late 17 ,and did nothing to force or even promote its culture in east..simply panpolonizm didn't exist.people were loyal to local magnats or religion or king or confederacja or whatever,never thinking about polishness and expanding it into the east.polish nationalizm was non existence. Poland never had settlement policy,force language or religion..ect. and even despite this ,almost entire GDL gentry,nobility and townfolks did polonize,while polish peasantry who settled there were ruthenized.Polish and ruthenians were official language in GDL,not lithuanian.its crazy,but most polish patriots back then and greatest commanders ect. were born in ruthenia or kresovians.

is certain that even GDL rulers never heard of lithuanian language,language almost dead at that time-used only in some baltic fishermen villages.
OP bigfoot
31 Oct 2015 #62
Lithuanian culture and language rejected Polonization. They consider Polish culture to be uncivilized, hypocritical and inferior.

They like American and German influence, but Polish? Not in the least bit.
Borsukrates
6 Nov 2015 #63
Do you want to know why ?

Why should Poland convert other nations to Poles anyway ? Why should Polish culture replace other cultures ? Polish people think *very* highly of themselves and their culture. National poets said stuff like "Poland is the Christ of nations". Poles, to this day, like to deny any harm they've done to other nations.

Before the outbreak of World War 2, about 69% of inhabitants of Poland were Poles. Every sixth was an Ukrainian, every tenth - a Jew, there were also many Belarussians and Germans. It was a multi-ethnic country after regaining independence in 1918. But it had a dumb policy of fanning the flames and inciting ethnic hatred. To give you an idea.... In lwowskie voievodship Poles outnumbered others only because its borders were moved far to the west, including Rzeszowszczyzna, Sanockie, Tarnobrzeskie. In many cities and towns of the eastern and southern Poland nearly half of population was Jewish. And after year 1926, all ministers and vice-ministers were Poles. All starosta's were Poles, and in later years even all wójt's (village leaders).

Eastern voievodships - wołyńskie, tarnopolskie, stanisławowskie - were mostly Ukrainian. Wileńskie and nowogródzkie were mostly Belarussian.

History lessons in Poland are very selective. They skip the shameful parts, or - at best - gloss over them. Then Poles act surprised that no neighboring countries like them.

.... Easter voievodships - wołyńskie, tarnopolskie, stanisławowskie - were mostly Ukrainian. Wileńskie and nowogródzkie - mostly Belarussian.

Long story short, people don't like being utterly dominated by a single nation, no matter how highly it thinks of itself.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
7 Nov 2015 #64
Easter voievodships - wołyńskie, tarnopolskie, stanisławowskie - were mostly Ukrainian.

No they weren't and aren't, end of story.
Borsukrates
8 Nov 2015 #65
Oh, but don't take my word for it! Check the Wikipedia! Check the "Narodowy Spis Powszechny ", the one from 1921 and 1931. Statistics made by the Polish goverment.

Wołyńskie voievodship (1921-1931)
=====================
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wo%C5%82y%C5%84_Voivodeship_%281921%E2%80%9339%29
-------------------------------------------------
Ukrainians - 68%
Poles - 17%
Jews - 10%
Germans - 2.3%
Czechs - 1.5%

Eastern Orthodox Christian - 69.8%
Roman Catholic - 15.7%
Judaism - 10%
Protestants - 2.6%
The rest were tatars and muslims.

Tarnopolskie Voievodship
===============
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojew%C3%B3dztwo_tarnopolskie
----------------------------------
Poles - 44.98% in 1921, 49.3% in 1931
Ukrainians - 49.98% and 45.5%
Jews - 4.83% and 4.93%
Germans - 0.17%

Greek Catholic - 59,36% and 54.48%
Roman Catholic - 31,35% and 36.65%
Judaism - 9,03% and 8.3%
Protestant - 2825 and 3700 people

Stanisławowskie Voievodship
=================
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojew%C3%B3dztwo_stanis%C5%82awowskie
---------------------------------------
Ukrainians - 68%
Poles - 22%
Jews - 7.4%
Germans - 1.1%

Greek Catholic - 74%, 73%
Roman Catholic - 14.5%, 16.6%
Judaism - 10.8%, 9.4%
Protestant - 0.8%

Wileńskie Voievodship
=============
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilno_Voivodeship_%281926%E2%80%9339%29
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojew%C3%B3dztwo_wile%C5%84skie_%28II_Rzeczpospolita%29
----------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poles - 59.7%
Belarussians - 22.7%
Russians - 3.4%
Jews - 8.5%
Lithuanians - 5.5%

Roman Catholic - 62,5%
Eastern Orthodox Christian - 25,4%
Judaism - 8,7% mojżeszowego
Other faiths - 3,4%

Nowogródzkie Voievodship
================

In 1931 the Nowogródek Voivodeship was home to about 616,000 ethnic Belorussians, or ~39% of the total population of Polish lands later annexed by Stalin. The number of ethnic Belorussians exceeded the number of ethnic Poles by eight percentage points.[7] Similarly, the Jewish population statistics were inappropriately reduced by about 4% in the actual number of dependants. The chairman of the Polish census statistical office, Edward Szturm de Sztrem stated after World War II that the returned forms might have been tampered with by the executive power, but to what extent is not known.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowogr%C3%B3dek_Voivodeship_%281919%E2%80%9339%29
==================

Moral of the story - I was only really wrong about Wileńskie, and that one still had no less than 22% Belorussians. Nowogródzkie numbers are highly controversial. When it comes to facts, saying "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!' doesn't work. The Second Polish Republic (II RP) was a cultural melting pot. I have a hunch you would hate living there. The 0.4% of foreigners Poland currently has is pathetic and... unhealthy.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
8 Nov 2015 #66
Nowogródzkie numbers are highly controversial.

The 1931 cenusus was a joke, because they deliberately didn't ask about nationality, but rather about mother tongue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_census_of_1931
goes into quite a lot of detail about how it was intentionally rigged.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
8 Nov 2015 #67
The 1931 cenusus was a joke, because they deliberately didn't ask about nationality, but rather about mother tongue.

LOL ! Because Germans and Ukrainians commonly spoke Polish as their 1st language :)))) The language results pretty much match the religion results, that's it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
8 Nov 2015 #68
Oh Greggy...you could at least try and accept that there was a very clear political motive behind that census.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
8 Nov 2015 #69
So said commies claiming that they "liberated" these lands and having the choice between Polish and anti-Polish sources, "expat" will always choose the latter.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
8 Nov 2015 #70
When the racist Pole has the choice between allowing self determination and crushing it, the racist will always crush it.

Typical of you to try and defend the typical racist II RP policies, though.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
8 Nov 2015 #71
Yeah, and now muppet go and bring up usual anti-Polonia nonsense about them not speaking Polish etc. :))) 1st language is actually a very good indicators, no real Ukrainians were speaking Polish as their 1st language and no, it's not that Ukrainians or Bolsheviks are always right and "racist Poles" are always wrong.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
8 Nov 2015 #72
See, you can't stop yourself.

A fair census would ask people what religion they were, what nationality they were and what their first language was. But then again, that wouldn't meet the political motive of those trying to make out that there were more Poles than in reality, eh?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
8 Nov 2015 #73
Or not, eh ? Quite a few Jews would declare themselves as Polish while no Germans or Ukrainians spoke Polish as the first language, It just didn't happen, It's not Ireland where people adopted language of the enemy. You don't even realize what the real controversies around the census were, just pick-up random commie propaganda slogans. Language, religion whatever else, the results would change no more than +/- 2%.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
8 Nov 2015 #74
Oh, but don't take my word for it!

Search this forum for my thread on the very subject, I'm not going to debate it all over again with somebody who doesn't even deem right to register.

the choice between Polish and anti-Polish sources, "expat" will always choose the latter.

That seems to be a pretty save bet on PF, at least in regard to those few "very specific" posters.

Moral of the story

People see what they what to see rather than talk about facts. Like you. Come on register, tell us what part of Russia you call from and we can talk shop.
Borsukrates
8 Nov 2015 #75
Listen, even if the numbers were as low as 20% Belarussian, 20% Ukrainian etc... would it be right to force those people to speak Polish, punish for speaking their own languages, deny them their own representation in the government, close down their schools etc ? That would be every 5th citizen. Poland signed the Little Treaty of Versailles ("Mały Traktat Wersalski") after World War 1. The Polish treaty was signed on 28 June 1919, the same day as the main Treaty of Versailles was signed.

The Polish government declared its support for "total and complete protection of life and freedom of all people regardless of their birth, nationality, language, race or religion" (Article 2) and religious tolerance (Article 7 which stated that "difference of religion, creed, or confession shall not prejudice any Polish national in matters relating to the enjoyment of civil or political rights, as for instance the admission to Public employment, functions and honors, or the exercise of professions and industries"). Provisions of the treaty "were obligations of international importance and were guaranteed by the League of Nations".

/wiki/Little_Treaty_of_Versailles

No more than 100 words in a quote - it's the PolishForums rule
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
8 Nov 2015 #76
would it be right to force those people to speak Polish

Thank God you liberated them from that oppression. Oh wait :)))))
Ironside 50 | 10,907
8 Nov 2015 #77
Listen, even if the numbers were as low

Listen, that was a common practice of the world at the time that governments expected their citizens to be able to communicate in the official language of the state. Even today most countries adhere to the idea.

Go and cry somewhere else, those few years that Poland actually started to implement some limited measures that every country in the world deemed normal, are nothing to be ashamed or to apologize for. I find it strange that some people getting hysterical and overworked over that, after all you could point out countries where such a practices were even harsher, its not as if people couldn't talk or conducting everyday business in their own relative languages, hell they could even use their own language on signboards.
Borsukrates
8 Nov 2015 #78
I'm not talking about making citinzens able to communicate in an official language. I'm talking about being unable to communicate in other languages. I'm talking about persecution and ethnical cleansing.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
8 Nov 2015 #79
Nope, you so far are talking no sense.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
8 Nov 2015 #80
ethnical cleansing

The term is ethnic cleansing or genocide. That was carried out by Turks Armenia, Ukrainians in SE Poland and by Serbs in Srebrenica. There was polonisation of the eastern borderlands in pre-war Poland, Polish ex-servicemen were given land to cultivate there and Poles received preferential treament in official jobs, culture and educaiton, but there was no genocide by Poles against non-Polish citizens of Poland.
Borsukrates
9 Nov 2015 #81
there was no genocide by Poles against non-Polish citizens of Poland.

196 villagers killed by Narodowe Siły Zbrojne (National Armed Forces). Wierzchowiny, 6 june 1945.

6 june 1945 in morning hours "Szary"'s squad entered Wierzchowiny in uniforms of Wojsko Polskie and was sympathetically received by inhabitants. They didn't realize who the soldiers really are. Soldiers of "Szary" left the village, then came back and conducted mass genocide on ukrainian civilians. A total of 196 people were murdered.

/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Wierzchowinach

The prison in Bereza Kartuska

From 1934-37, the facility usually housed 100-500 inmates at a time. In April 1938 the number went up to 800.[21] Conditions were exceptionally harsh, and only one inmate managed to escape.[22] Only one suicide occurred; on 5 February 1939, inmate Dawid Cymerman slit his throat in a toilet.[23] The number of deaths in detention was kept artificially low by releasing prisoners who were in poor health.[24] According to Śleszyński, 13 inmates died during the facility's operation, most of them at a hospital in Kobryń.[23][25] In othes sources, the total number of deaths, is variously given as between 17 and 20.[26]

/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_prison
G (undercover)
9 Nov 2015 #82
OUN terrorists/commie party of western ukraine/belarus terrorists. IRA guys got far worse treatment in "enlightened" UK long after WW2. And of course I won't even ask what does it have to do with anything... because it's obvious it's just a festival of Polonophobia, dude just go and get a job, a real one.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Nov 2015 #83
villagers

Is killing a Nazi or Bolshevik under conditons of civil strife genocide? Those largely Ukrainian villagers had collabroated with the Nazis. When the other occupation force, the Red Army, arrived, they welcomed the new invaders and joined the Soviet-backed secret police. A strong communist cell existed in the village. The memory of the Wołyń Massacre of Poles by rampaging Ukrainian nationalists was still very fresh and its Polish survivors were among the Polish combatants. Whenever hostilities haev an additional overlay of criss-crossing ethnicities and ideologies, nothing is simple and straighforward.
Dolnoslask
9 Nov 2015 #84
Wołyń Massacre

Well said Polonius,

Let us never forget,
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Nov 2015 #85
Bereza Kartuska

Bereza was no Boy Scout camp to be sure, and harsh methods had to be used there are elsehwere in those troubled, precarious times. Poland was wedged in between two hostile powers -- Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany -- and faced numerous internal threats. These included the Nazi fifth column, an effective Soviet fifth column -- the illegal, subversive, Jewish-dominated Communist Party of Poland, as well as Ukrainian terrorists and saboteurs who had assassinated a senior Polish official. What would you have done under the circumstances -- held a weekly picnic for the mortal enemies of Poland?
Borsukrates
9 Nov 2015 #86
Is killing a Nazi or Bolshevik under conditons of civil strife genocide?

One Nazi or Bolshevik ? Probably not. 196 of them ? Civilians ? Yes.

No government, no organization EVER claims to kill innocent people. The order is always as follows: 1) blame someone for something, 2) kill them.

Speaking of Wołyń Massacre - yes, it happened. But it was merely the latest event in a history of mutual hostility (a topic for another thread). But why do you expect Ukrainians to acknowledge it if you don't acknowledge polish genocide ? An estimated 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians were killed as a retribution. Why do you think there were so many Cossack uprisings ? Why Bohdan Chmielnicki appeared ? In 1593 Sejm declared Cossacks are traitors and can be killed without trial. Are you saying killing in retribution is justified ? Then Wołyń Massacre is justified, because it was a retribution as well.

There were plenty of polish terrorists as well, including Józef Piłsudski, Walery Sławek, Aleksander Prystor, Tomasz Arciszewski (3 prime ministers), Ignacy Mościcki (The president; he constructed his own bombs). In 1906 polish patriots performed 1206 terrorist attacks against Russian occupants (3 per day).

wiadomosci.onet.pl/prasa/tak-walczyli-polscy-terrorysci-lada-predzej-czy-pozniej-polacy-wysadziliby-w/t0nk5

Germans acknowledged their history, their genocide. They don't try to sweep it under the carpet. It antagonizes other nations. Poland is acting more like Russia - it tries to falsify history, just not on such a large scale. Russians say the Great Patriotic War started in 1941 and defend the Ribentropp-Molotov pact. They deny collaboration with the Nazi Germany prior to that. Poles say the World War 2 started in 1939, but conviently forget they attacked Czechosłowacja on 30 September 1938:

The Germans were delighted with this outcome, and were happy to give up the sacrifice of a small provincial rail centre to Poland in exchange for the ensuing propaganda benefits. It spread the blame of the partition of the Republic of Czechoslovakia, made Poland a participant in the process and confused political expectations. Poland was accused of being an accomplice of Nazi Germany - a charge that Warsaw was hard-put to deny.

Cutted - such big quote again and your access on the forum will be suspended

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie#Part_of_Poland_.281938.E2.80.931939.29

Learn history.

I'll say it again because moderators cut it - Bereza Kartuska was called a "concentration camp" by many historians, including Polish ones and Czesław Miłosz. You can read more on WIkipedia.
G (undercover)
9 Nov 2015 #87
Then Wołyń Massacre is justified

You are justifying genocide, disgusting scum. Because of something that allegedly happened centuries earlier... ? Do you also justify so called Holocaust because Jews were persecuting and killing first Christians ? Troll, go get a job.


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