Very true,the wealthy urbanites were proper Poles,
Immediately pre-war, the Anglican parish in Warsaw had 1800 families, some of whom had roots in the UK and many of whom were converts from Judaism. The parish in Bialystok was similar.
Anti-Slavic racism in history
Immediately pre-war, the Anglican parish in Warsaw had 1800 families, some of whom had roots in the UK and many of whom were converts from Judaism. The parish in Bialystok was similar.
Ron2
10 Feb 2026 #32
What do Slavs actually stand for today? It seems they adopted the Western trash and mix it more and more with their old, dying traditions.
What do Slavs actually stand for today?
What are you talking about? Slavic culture with local variations was a thing till about 1200, take or leave a few years.
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Currently, there is no unified Slavic culture. When people mention Slavic culture, they often think of Russia, but Russia actually has roots in Mongolian culture. We can see they kept Slavic languages and some folk customs, but they are not Slavic culture.
In Europe, various civilizations have different foundations, which leads to superficial differences among cultures. However, at a deeper level, they share similar core elements.
When it comes to cultures, there are Celtic, Germanic, Latin, Slavic, and Byzantine cultures. In terms of civilizations, we can identify the Byzantine civilization and the Latin (Western) civilization. Notably, Russia does not belong to these civilizations; instead, it is considered an outsider with remnants of Slavic cultural elements and language. However, its civilization belongs to the same civilization that the Mongols belong to.
I guess you could argue and agree with those Russian thinkers who view Russia as a different civilization on its own. I'm not sure they are right, but their claims about being the third Rome are BS.
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It seems they adopted the Western trash
If you think that woke is not present in Poland, you are wrong. There is more resistance to it because we were subjected to communist treatment for 40 years, and that gives us some natural resistance.
Ron2
10 Feb 2026 #34
Currently, there is no unified Slavic culture
That's my point. There's no reason to call Poles Slavic any more as Poland has little to do with the old ages and values. Globalization is on the run now, but the damage is done.
However, its civilization belongs to the same civilization that the Mongols belong to.
Ok... how do Celts and Germanics arise only to level of "culture", but Mongolia all the way to "civilization"?
Mongolia specifically had no civilization, and instead would be absorbed by whomever they conquered. Becoming Sinicized, or Persianized, or Slavicized depending on what they came into contact with.
The Mongols did not have strong opinions about religion, or language... they only cared about your lifestyle. "Living in felt homes" - like us. "Living in houses within settlements" - weak and effeminate, to be taxed and subjugated.
Maybe you can talk instead about a nomadic civilization? Developing from the Scythians, to the Huns, to the Sarmatians, to the Alans, then the proto-Turks, the Uyghurs, Khazars, Kitans, and finally the Mongol "culmination"?
Ukrainian and Russian Cossacks are a continuation of some sort of that steppe nomadic tradition.
You can make a stronger argument for "civilization" then, and even draw certain parallels to modern Russia:
1) Nature defines this civilization I think. Low rainfall and extreme winters - means you have to focus on raising livestock, and moving with it. So... low population density, dispersed settlements, and as a result a big emphasis on military values.
2) The horse being central to all life.
3) No separation between civilians and soldiers as in settled societies. When the country goes to war, everyone is involved by necessity.
4) Leadership is charismatic and conditional, not institutional. The leader has to constantly demonstrate military prowess and generosity to maintain his mandate.
5) Laws that are meant to be enforced through reputation and collective sanction. Focused on compensation over incarceration, and often involving collective punishment of entire kin groups for individuals transgressions.
6) The sense of "country" is people centered, not land centered like in feudal societies. Territories are therefore "resource" and not so much "identity". Borders are amorphous.
7) Externally oriented for extraction rather than Roman style absorption. The name of the game is tribute, trade control, and political leverage. Direct rule over farmers is avoided unless totally unavoidable, and when it is done, it's still through intermediaries.
o with the old ages and values.
Old values firmly belong to Christendom, which represents Latin civilization. Slavic adds a differnt tang to it.
Old values firmly belong to Christendom
Who is more Christian, Cicero or Machiavelli?
Ok, maybe that's a stupid comparison... let's look instead at Aristotle. Died centuries before Christ, and had no idea of the Old Testament. Still... somehow managed to lay out the full template of a virtuous life - neatly separating the Good from the Bad.
Are you sure you know where your "old values" come from?
but Mongolia all the way to "civilization"?
Not really. Mongolia represents a different barbaric civilization, which exacally it is not the subject of our chat here. Just to clarify that point.
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Maybe you can talk instead about a nomadic civilization?
We can call it -Cywilizacja turańska You can Google it.
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Who is more Christian, Cicero or Machiavelli?
He meant social cohesion and common values in Western civilization as opposed to what some call globalization or woke culture.
So, I may adhere to this narrow meaning aside from philosophy, which I dislike. I'm not avoiding it, but I dislike it. I'm all for simple, realistic truths and answers.
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Machiavelli is Christan while Cierco is Roman.
let's look instead at Aristotle.
Many paths lead to God; this does not nullify the truth of it.
Cywilizacja turańska
Yes it is quite a popular topic in Russia within certain places.
Bashkirs, Khakass, Tatars and other Turkic peoples of Russia have been studying these things quite excitedly since 1991 - and staging conferences with their friends from Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, etc.
Erdogan is obsessed with it, and pours enormous money and resources into promoting this pan-Turkic sh*t. He wants to build a "New Turan".
I think the Russian and Central Asian governments watch these things with some level of irritation and humor.
Erdogan is obsessed with it, and pours enormous money and resources into promoting this pan-Turkic sh*t
For some time (around 10-15 years go IIRC) the official Turkish position was that there was a single Turkish language. I think they back off that but Kazakhs have told me they watch Turkish series in the original with no translation and understand just fine..... (but they cant' read it without special study).
pan-Turkic sh*t (...) a "New Turan".
Tell me about it! There was even a Turkish forum called Turania, from which I was repeatedly banned. 😆 Aaaah... memories. *gets all nostalgic*
the official Turkish position was that there was a single Turkish language.
Erdogan believes in the totally pseudo-scientific, Kemal-era theory of the Sun Language.
This theory supposes that all languages on Earth originated from Turkish. Yes - all languages - Cantonese and Basque included.
I think they backed off
Yeah, they went super hard in the 1990s - and then backed off when there formed a backlash to their efforts. The Gullenists built literally hundreds of schools across the region, where the instruction was "Turkish language only" while Russian was either not taught or taught as a foreign language. Then the state sponsored the opening of entire universities in parallel to the Gulenists' work on younger kids.
Governments became anxious, when many of these Gulenist-raised kids started veering off into more hardline interpretations of Islam as they became adults, and started taking peculiar field trips to places like northwest Syria or Western Libya.
Also, the Turks promoted a fascistic narrative of themselves as the "older brothers" and gravitational center of the Turkish world. This was an insult to the locals, who viewed themselves as a reservoir of true Turkicness, and the Turks instead as peripheral cousins who are really just Greeks and Armenians.
Finally - these Turkish efforts ran up against Russian and Chinese resistance - which view the region as their exclusive sphere of influence.
"New Turan"
a Turkish forum called Turania
... and you wouldn't believe how touchy those guys were. I remember making a rather mild-language joke - something about Poles owning Turkish anuses in the Battle of Vienna. Nothing rude really - we make hundreds similar jokes on PF - and they were all over me like Kyrgyz horsemen on a loose goat. :-/
However, to be fair, the Turkish guys that we had on PF were super cool.
Bratwurst Boy 10 | 13153
10 Feb 2026 #45
If you think that woke is not present in Poland, you are wrong.
....I believe the same concerning East Germany!
Globalization is on the run now, but the damage is done.
I doubt that is the last historical word!
...what we are now experiencing in the West is the backlash to this globalization....putting the own tribe back in the center, not some internationalist organization!
putting the own tribe back in the center, not some internationalist organization!
Which doesn't bode especially well for the EU, does it?
I remember making a rather mild-language joke
Хехехе!
I believe the same concerning East Germany!
A paradox. The most progressive places on Earth, produced the most conservative people.
As if all the stuff about women's rights, regulated working hours, paid vacations, abortions, no-fault divorces, etc... was all just a distraction.
Bratwurst Boy 10 | 13153
10 Feb 2026 #48
Which doesn't bode especially well for the EU, does it?
It has to change to adapt to this new age.....or as Gorbatschow said so nicely: ""Life punishes those who come too late"
The most progressive places on Earth, produced the most conservati
...only because Leftism is so "inhumanly".....always wanting to change the human, building a "paradise" against the human nature....even sympathizer can't bear that for very long...the end is always the same, an oppressive nightmare!
as Gorbatschow said so nicely: ""Life punishes those who come too late"
*nods*
History is punctual, and it doesn't wait for European Parliament committees to finish their consultations.
Erdogan is obsessed with it, and pours enormous money and resources into promoting this pan-Turkic sh*t...
Indeed, it serves him well in building Turkey's influence. However, this narrow ethnic or tribal perspective is not what I'm focusing on. Civilization transcends races and ethnicities; it is less about narrow cultural or tribal identities.
Turanic civilization can extend to other cultural groups or ethnicities, such as the Moscovites, for example.
Erdogan's a throwback to the days of pashas and sultans, a true insult to modern Turkey and all that Ataturk built!
Tansu Cillar, the first female head of Turkey, enlightened and well traveled, educated partially at an Ivy in the US, must be having a kniption fit.
Tansu Cillar, the first female head of Turkey, enlightened and well traveled, educated partially at an Ivy in the US, must be having a kniption fit.
educated partially at an Ivy in the US
There's your problem, almost without exception the incumbents and the children of Latin American leaders are all educated in th3 US. They never speak their flawless US English at home. The problem is the indoctrination that goes with the best education money can buy. Look at all those supposed leaders of "grass roots" movements and their American accents.
Remember Albright addressing the people of Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Montenegro in the most patronising manner possible
My point though was that Erdogan's an insult to all that modern Turkey stands for.
@Lyzko
Erdogan is doing exactly the same as European and US leaders do. In reality no country stands for anything, the Soviets claimed to stand for workers rights and the US claimed to stand for human rights and the rule of law neither place did. The international arena occupied by governments is just a competition between PR departments.
Erdogan is doing exactly the same as European and US leaders do. In reality no country stands for anything, the Soviets claimed to stand for workers rights and the US claimed to stand for human rights and the rule of law neither place did. The international arena occupied by governments is just a competition between PR departments.
Ok, I see what you're driving at.
However, am not entirely convinced. Seems a bit too cynical.
However, am not entirely convinced. Seems a bit too cynical.
almost without exception the incumbents and the children of Latin American leaders are all educated in America
This is a very important thing you've identified.
I've been thinking about this problem, for about half of my life - as a representative of one of these "rootless cosmopolitans" myself.
-//-
Had I ever tried to do something in public life back home - I would immediately be branded in certain corners as an American agent. Perhaps deservedly so.
-//-
Initially, when I came to America - I wanted to write about how crooked post-Soviet elites use the American media and lobbying infrastructure to pull the wool over the eyes of "Good Americans".
I wanted to write about how exile billionaires use their ill gotten gains to subsidize an entire industry which pumped out bad press about Russia, and how this is corrosive to core American and British interests.
I wanted to write about how it's important for decision makers in either place to actually engage with each other, rather than using this "phony telephone" game with unreliable interlocutors.
-//-
Over the years the desire shifted to examining my own biases and that of others like me.
We are foreigners in America and strangers back home. Do we have anything good to offer? Is anybody waiting for us?
I think not.
-//-
In any case - you are right - the Ivy League, just like Oxbridge - is one of the most important imperial tools at America's disposal.
The ability to shape the minds and hearts of future leaders in other corners of the world.
And you are right that populations around the world should be suspicious of these American imports.
@Bobko
You deserve a considered response and you will get one but not right now. I am presently a bit busy cooking and mulling stuff in my tiny wee mind.
I have just just returned to work and truthfully could do with an oxbridge type in work instead of the semi trained chimp I'm stuck with.
You deserve a considered response and you will get one but not right now. I am presently a bit busy cooking and mulling stuff in my tiny wee mind.
I have just just returned to work and truthfully could do with an oxbridge type in work instead of the semi trained chimp I'm stuck with.
I am presently a bit busy cooking and mulling stuff in my tiny wee mind
Hehehe.
Enjoy your meal!
You deserve a considered response and you will get one but not right now
You promised?
Where is it?
We are foreigners in America and strangers back home
The eternal curse of the migrant.
I don't really want to talk about migrants here except to point out that most migrants have not moved for economic reasons.
The colonial schooling offered by the greater powers is a double edged sword. Selling educational attainment with all that entails and at the same time effectively acting as an extension of government. It's an exercise in soft power which all too often mutates into hard power when these western educated elites either take control of state forces or form their own militia to counter state forces. It is a reverse of who pays the piper calls the tune ie tribute. You pay to be told what to do.
That's just a quick rattle still mulling...