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I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry


AngielskiOrzel
30 Jun 2007 #31
I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side. Is that good enough

you will do for me kid, im only half. And as for idiots who claim to be 100% talk siht, the borders have shifted, invaisions have been frequent. Doubt there is a full blood in here, although they would all like to think so
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148
30 Jun 2007 #32
I am Polish too

You wish...
Davey 13 | 388
30 Jun 2007 #33
I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side

same here=)
stanczyk
7 Jul 2007 #34
I am a mutt!! But I am most proud of my Polish descendants! MY BUSHIE!!!!!!!!!
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #35
Sorry for my poor English.
The first 40 years of my life I was sure that my grandfather was Polish by speaking Polish and belonging to Roman Catholic Church.
He was born in Penza - Volga region - Russia and didn't return from World War II.
Afrer my mother - his daughter - died I started looking for the past of their family in archives.
I managed to discover genealogy of three ancestors' famolies (grand-grandfather, his mother, and grand-grandmother) untill 17 century.
I was surprised to learn that they weren't Polish at all. They were Polish-speaking Catholic residents of Litwa (now territories of today Belarus and Lithania), not of the Crown as Polish people. The were polonized Russians or Lithanians. As for example the poet Adam Mickiewicz.

I think There are many people who think they have Polish origin but they are Lithanians (not ethnic Lithaniana but residents of ancient Litwa.
Lady in red
15 Jul 2007 #36
who think they have Polish origin

Doesn't really matter does it ? We're all Europeans now :) We all share some of the same genes, somewhere along the lines........even if it was a long time ago :)

My parents and grandparents were all Polish but I've only ever been there once. We're all mixed up and in the wrong countries.........or right ones depending on how you look at it.

:)
Patrycja19 62 | 2,688
15 Jul 2007 #37
I was told I looked very European.. my only hope is when I come to visit I dont
get thrown our for messing up on my Polish :)))
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #38
Doesn't really matter does it ? We're all Europeans now :) We all share some of the same genes, somewhere along the lines........even if it was a long time ago :)

That's quite inportant for people in Belarus , ex-Litwa.
They are told by Polish and Russians that their ethnic group was able only to be a peasant, not szlachtic. That is a damageful. People should know more than 10 per cent of their compatriots were from szlachta, they called themselves untill the 19 century litwiny. They were Belorussians and Lithanians although spoke Polish (as Irish people speak English)
Lady in red
15 Jul 2007 #39
Sorry :(

I didn't realise how important it was to you.
Big Rob - | 70
15 Jul 2007 #40
Doesn't really matter does it ? We're all Europeans now :) We all share some of the same genes, somewhere along the lines........even if it was a long time ago :)

Just wanted to say that I agree with you 100%.
Lady in red
15 Jul 2007 #41
Hi Rob, yeah I think that's what we should all be proud of now. Feels good too, I think.
Thanks :)
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #42
Poles and Lithanians were also from a united RP. That didn't keep such people as Adam Mickiewicz away from his Litwin origin. The first words of his Pan adeusz are: Litwa my Motherland...
ola123
15 Jul 2007 #43
Are you Russian, Lithuanian, Polish? Just asking.
opts 10 | 260
15 Jul 2007 #44
You are Polish, when your heart tells you so. :)
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #45
Are you Russian, Lithuanian, Polish? Just asking

Russian by Belief and citizenship bur my mother had origin in Litwa
ola123
15 Jul 2007 #46
Interesting mix.
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #47
Each country consists of such mixes.
Millions of people in Russia has ancestors from Litwa and Crown by massive deportations of previous centuries and many people settled for Russia before 1917 by unemployment.

I was managed to learn my ancestors' history untill 17 century because they presented it to Szlachetska commission for szlachta confirmation in 1840-1850. Three ancestors families past became evident. My mother knew only names of her grandfathers because it was dangerous to tell anything about non-proletarian or non-peasant past of family to little children in 1930-1940/ When she became a grown-up everybody was dead.

Many people in Russia in such situation

Language doesn't shows ethnicity in any case. Irish people speak English. That doesn't mean they are Englishmen.
Of course Mickiewicz was a Lithanian-Polish unity in one state partisan. Nobody may oppose to that idea because we see it in his works. But we also should agree that people Litwa in his epoch called themselves Litwins, not Polish people. They were Polish only for foreigners.

I don't think we should follow the ideas of official Poland of 1918-1939 that renamed Litwa as Kresy and also renamed Brest-Litowski.
witek 1 | 587
15 Jul 2007 #48
Language doesn't shows etnicity in any case

'Scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tatar'
truhlei 10 | 332
15 Jul 2007 #49
Scratch a Polish szlachtic and you will also find a Tatar.
You deal with ius sanguis, blood law.
I deal with ius soli, ground law.
Russians have not only Tatars among ancestors but also tribes similar to today Finland residents and many turk tribes appeared in this region since 6 century. But Russia is not called Tataria since 1480 and never was called Suomi.

As to Litwa it had such name in difference with Crown (Poland) even after Lublin Union.
Until 1795 Litwins didn't call themselves Poles.
Now Litwa is apart from Poland. Two states Belarus and Litvania occupy its territory.
That's the reason why I think My ancestors were from Litwa not for Poland despite speaking Polish
Osiedle_Ruda
15 Jul 2007 #50
Ok I'm 95%-100% Polish so I'm not very Polish................................ erm now that doesn't make sense at all

hehe... unfortunately I was born in England, but I have 100% Polish parents - does that mean I have more right to buy a flat in Poland than ola123 has, or not? lol ;) :D
ola123
16 Jul 2007 #51
I have more rights coz I was born here and I work here nanananana :P Read my post on the other thread.
El Gamal 1 | 27
16 Jul 2007 #52
As to Litwa it had such name in difference with Crown (Poland) even after Lublin Union.Until 1795 Litwins didn't call themselves Poles.Now Litwa is apart from Poland. Two states Belarus and Litvania occupy its territory. That's the reason why I think My ancestors were from Litwa not for Poland despite speaking Polish

You seems to be intelligent and well educated person, but IMO in this case, you are mixing several things and don't understand some. Compare Polish community in Kresy (now western Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania) to German one on former German land (now western Poland). Germans living there were Germans, similarly Poles living in the Kresy were Poles. They called themselves Poles, spoke Polish, were held within Polish culture, had Polish parents, etc.... After hundreds of years of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth Poles were emigrating in the east and this fact didn't make Lithuanians of them.

About Mickiewicz: for me he did more bad things to Poles that good, so if Lithuanians want to take him, let them do it :D. We had more noble Poles and it's better to look among mathematicians and engineers rather than poets.

About you: YES, some of your ancestors were Polish (I know it hurts in contemporary Putin-rulled Russia). Remember not to tell it to anybody, it's dangerous for your teeth ;).
tornado2007 11 | 2,270
16 Jul 2007 #53
To the author of this topic:

Don't feel bad the closest thing i've got to Poland is that i once had a polish girlfriend, LOL

I'm about three or four different nationalities and i count myself as all of them :)
shopgirl 6 | 928
16 Jul 2007 #54
I'm not Polish enough either. :(
Qacer 38 | 125
16 Jul 2007 #55
I had someone Polish on me, but I don't think that counts. ;-)
truhlei 10 | 332
17 Jul 2007 #56
similarly Poles living in the Kresy were Poles. They called themselves Poles, spoke Polish, were held within Polish culture, had Polish parents, etc....

There were immigrants from Poland in Litwa but the majority of Polish-speaking szlachta People were Ruthenians and Zmud (ethnic Lithuanians) by origin. They felt a unity with Pole szlachta but we have few evidence they called Poles themselves. The lists of szlachta in Grodno at the beginning of 19 century shows us that people called themselves bielaruska or litowska szlachta (sorry for spelling).

Most of them spoked Polish (as well as Belorussian) but they didn't feel themselves Poles by ground (lex soli). There was still a difference between Crown and Litwa.

As to the immigrants, most of them were really naturalized there as people from Bogatyrowiczi described by Elisa Orgezkowa.
My version is that they felt themselves Poles alter Poland received status of Kingdom and Litwa passed to be Russian Gubernijas. The second reason was the liquidation of United Church. Greek-Catholics gave the feeling of some national unanimity within Litwa: 80 per cent of peasants and at least 25 per cent of poor szlachta. When Greek Catholicism disappeared Roman Catholics and former Greek Catholics passed to Roman rite felt themselves in minority and the wish to feel themselves within a great catholic nation appeared.

I'm sure this is common with 19 century not before.
This is my version. Historians in Belarus (except official) support this idea

Remember not to tell it to anybody, it's dangerous for your teeth ;).

Now it is not dangerous especially among middle classers.
Old Victorian Polish speking middle class is still in memory and respect among Russian middle classers.
They hate contemporary Polish behaviour presented in the films and in private contacts: angry agressive and inmoral.
Gamal I'd like to invite you to a discussion https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/history/poland-russia-ending-story-11550/ As ro me it seems to be very interesting

Compare Polish community in Kresy (now western Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania) to German one on former German land (now western Poland). Germans living there were Germans, similarly Poles living in the Kresy were Poles.

As to Germans you give an example of colonists. As to Polish speaking people in Litwa. the majority was formed by native szlachta that could speak Polish and used it in pyblic places since 1696. By the way, in 18 century the petitions in Grodno tribunale from little szlachta nearly always have signs of national Belarus language.

But even if sarmats from Litwa knew a perfect Polish that doesn't signify they thought about themselves they were not only Pospolitny people but also Poles.

Belarus cities are speaking Russian mainly but in you ask anybody if he is Russian he'll respond No I'm Bielorussian. Only some intellectuals cultivate local language (its numbe grows) but everydody is Bielorussian

I don't think one should put in doubt that:
1. There were in Litwa native bojary and semjany of Ruthenian and Zemajtian origin.
2. They were quite numerous and in 15-16 centuries its number multiplicated considerably.
3. They could speak Polish as well as Ruthenian.
4. They considered Litwa to be their Fatherland. They didn't consider they were from Crown.
They were Litwins and Litwins weren't Poles in that time

I'm not an expert. Please correct me if I am wrong. It is quite uneasy to learn such details away fron Poland without Polish language.

But I thought Pole and Litwin were in 15-18 centuries quite a different terms and Litwin never was Pole
witek 1 | 587
17 Jul 2007 #58
such nationalistic concepts of being purely Polish or Lithuanian are fairly new.

family Pawlowicz. Ruthenians with Polish surname?

surnames ending withiczrepresent only 2.5 % of all Polish surnames and they are considered to have originated from Belarus and Litwa.

As to Polish origin, what are your reasons for such conviction?

Litwa, Belarus and other lands were quite multicultural as there were Lithuanians, Poles, Belorussians, Ruthenians, Germans, Jews and others living there. For example it is said that 10% of Saint Petersburg's population is of Polish origin
truhlei 10 | 332
17 Jul 2007 #59
But by ground did they all call themselves Litwins?

such nationalistic concepts of being purely Polish or Lithuanian are fairly new.

Not an old one? Of the past?
witek 1 | 587
17 Jul 2007 #60
In 15-18th Century Grand Duchy of Lithuania nationalism was not present and nobles who migrated from one place to another would adapt to a new locality and take local religion, language and culture.

surnames ending with icz represent only 2.5 % of all Polish surnames and they are considered to have originated from Belarus and Litwa.

more specifically the owicz/ewiczsuffix originally came into Polish from Belorussian


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