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Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families


boletus 30 | 1,366
4 Jul 2012 #31
but my English is too poor to explain the word itself.

Also known as a fee or fief. Here is a definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_(feudal_tenure)
OP genecps 7 | 131
4 Jul 2012 #32
Ya rozmovlyau po Russki;o)

I'm from East Ukraine.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
20 Jul 2012 #33
Gday Gene, and welcome to the forum. I'm wearing a several hundred year old signet ring which has my family's herb on it. It's got crowns, shields, wings, horseshoes and arrows on it. On the sides of the ring, where it isn't too worn, it has what looks to be once elaborate baroqueish scroll work. I've got a signet stamp at home with the herb on it too.

I'm not sure when the crest was acquired/created. I can trace my ancestors back to 1583 based on the internet, and I have a copy of a family tree that was started back in the 1770's and added on til about the mid 1800's. I am aware that some of my ancestors have held senior positions in Poland and that one of my ancestors went with a small contingent of his troops to Vienna in 1683. It seems as though my family had a strong military tradition, as nearly all the family photos I have from about the mid 1800's to the 1930's have males of my line in military gear. My great great great grandfather is photographed wearing Sarmatian attire, fur kolpak, cloak and high boots included (as well as the handlebar moustache). We originated in what is now Ukraine, and bred horses there.

Legend has it that my family's genesis goes back to the early 1300's, and that we are descended from Tatars. I'll probably never know for sure though.

The Polish nobility was very different to the rest of Europe. Norman Davies gives an excellent account of this in his work "God's Playground". Cheers.
Puzzie 1 | 63
20 Jul 2012 #34
A great thread - thanks. In reality, our nobility had probably as many titles as its equivalents elsewhere. We can look into the subject in a greater depth. For the time being, I recommend the following Polish heraldry sites:

gajl.wielcy.pl

ebuw.uw.edu.pl/dlibra/publication?id=49

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_szlachecki_(lista_herb%C3%B3w)

Legend has it that my family's genesis goes back to the early 1300's, and that we are descended from Tatars. I'll probably never know for sure though.The Polish nobility was very different to the rest of Europe. Norman Davies gives an excellent account of this in his work "God's Playground". Cheers.

Why wouldn't you know? If you try to dig into the subject, do some serious research, you should succeed in finding out. So the Polish nobility was allegedly "very different to the rest of Europe"? Why? - "Very different" - wow. Concerning Norman Davies, I would advise some caution with his opinions. Not because he is allegedly a "Polonophile." Actually, from my viewpoiont, he is at times Polonophobic. ( I noticed that, sometimes, when somebody likes another nation, he at the same time has a dislike towards it. Strange how the human mind works.) For example, in "Rising 44" he skips mentioning the Polish last names, uses only the first letters of them, on the grounds they're too difficult for the British public to read, or something of this sort. And he quotes a stupid, racist opinion of Dickens on the Polish language as a justification for it. Norman Davies is Welsh and, if I remember it right, in "Isles" he complains about the discrimination by the English against the Welsh language. So when he says the Polish nobility was "very different" from the nobles elsewhere, I advise not to take his word for it.
OP genecps 7 | 131
21 Jul 2012 #35
Ozi Dan, Ya, it seems everyone from royal clans seem to be afilited with their countries family at one point or another. And owners of land, and usualy a small town.

Puzzie, you are welcome. Also I think that Polsih were slightly different then a lot of other Europeans because they treated their royals much more equaly, and I think Polish as people are much more prone to give people respect. Your zlata had primarily the Lord title, unlike the others, which had:

King & Queen consort or Princess consort
Queen & King consort or Prince consort
Queen dowager or Queen mother
Princess dowager or Princess mother
Grand Duke & Grand Duchess
Grand Prince & Grand Princess
Viceroy & Vicereine
Archduke & Archduchess
Infante & Infanta
Duke & Duchess
Prince & Princess
Marquess & Marchioness
Marquis & Marquise
Margrave & Margravine
Count & Countess
Earl & Countess
Viscount & Viscountess
Baron & Baroness
Freiherr & Freifrau
Baronet & Baronetess
Hereditary Knight, Ritter
Knight & Dame
Nobile, Edler von
Puzzie 1 | 63
21 Jul 2012 #36
Puzzie, you are welcome.

I guess you are right about the titles. And yes, we were different in the way we related to our royals; they were elected, not inheriting the throne. The political system we had during the First Commonwealth is called "demokracja szlachecka" meaning: "noble democracy." It was a democracy, but exclusively for the szlachta (the nobility). The peasant masses did not participate in it.

So you are Eastern Ukrainian? Maybe of Cossack origin?

Nice to meet you, brother.
OP genecps 7 | 131
21 Jul 2012 #37
Nice to meet you, brother.

Puzzie, I'm not going to go into what I am, I got a whole threat I'm explaining my origins, and keep arguing with a few people on this website about who and what I am. I will tell you this: I'm a white guy who practices Judaism from Eastern Ukraine, my grandpa and grandma are from Belarus, some on the other side are from Northern Ukraine. We found 3 European family crests belonging to our clan, and we got some oral tradition of being from royal stock. By religious tradition our last name is the highest "honorary" one can get, and we were also given the title of a Kosher butcher (so everyone in our village, including the priest has to pay us if he wants to eat meat). Here's a link to our families facebook group. I think that can sum up who we are better.

facebook.com/groups/223616031059309/

(This is the post where we, and my hators argue, I just hope they can keep it in there and not bring it into this threads. I'm posting this for your amusement)

Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine

Correction: Ozi Dan, I wanted to say that all royal clans were usually affiliated with their countries military. So it's no surprise to find that you have a solid military tradition in your family.
Puzzie 1 | 63
21 Jul 2012 #38
I will tell you this: I'm a white guy who practices Judaism from Eastern Ukraine, my grandpa and grandma are from Belarus, some on the other side are from Northern Ukraine.

Very interesting - a religious Jew coming from - as I understand - the Polish szlachta, amongst others?
OP genecps 7 | 131
21 Jul 2012 #39
No Puzzie, not part of Polish szlachta!

Just curious about it.

Puzzie, I find it strange that a Jewish family from Eastern Europe has European looking family crests. It's weird to myself. I know a Jewish guy who's family converted to Catholicism and they became Polish Lords. He recently took up Judaism.

PS. I didn't know your zlata voted on who is going to be the lead monarch. That's friggin cool! That does give a certain "family" feel to the whole nation. Especially since Poland had a such a large number of Lords (so it seems). How was the general relations between lords and their landed subjects?
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
21 Jul 2012 #40
their landed subjects

should be " landed slaves. ".
Puzzie 1 | 63
21 Jul 2012 #41
There were some Jews knighted by the Polish kings after having converted to Christianity. In fact, my own family on my dad's side comes from such converts (in the 1700s Ukraine, which was part of Poland then). They, those Jewish converts on my family's spear side, were called the Frankists, and, as I understand, were strongly disliked by the Talmudic Jews.

How was the general relations between lords and their landed subjects?

Do you mean what were the relations between the szlachta nad the peasantry? If so, they weren't great, I'm afraid.
OP genecps 7 | 131
21 Jul 2012 #42
Do you mean what were the relations between the szlachta nad the peasantry? If so, they weren't great, I'm afraid

Can you elaborate more on this?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
22 Jul 2012 #43
Ya, it seems everyone from royal clans

Please aviod this disgusting word... In Poland it had nothing to do with being "royal". Crowds bowing to some guy is not our pair of shoes.
Ironside 49 | 10,294
22 Jul 2012 #44
Crowds bowing to some guy is not our [air of shoes.

ha ha !
in your dreams ? or in Poland 2012?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
22 Jul 2012 #45
You mean lemings ? Hopefully it is a very short living phenomenon...
Ironside 49 | 10,294
22 Jul 2012 #46
I doubt it somehow.
OP genecps 7 | 131
22 Jul 2012 #47
Grzegorz_

Don't take the meaning of that word too literal. I know a "royal" who live in a trailer in Texas.
Puzzie 1 | 63
22 Jul 2012 #48
Can you elaborate more on this?

Gene, I gladly will, but a little later. I haven't forgotten your thread and your question; I'm just a bit busy now. Just a quickie: in Poland we have a monumental work, by medievalist Kazimierz Tymieniecki (d. 1968), entitled "Historia chlopow polskich" (History of Polish Peasantry; 3 volumes ).
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
25 Jul 2012 #49
Why wouldn't you know?

Hi Puzzie. For me, it's just a legend, because I don't have anything tangible to say that we are descended from these people.

So the Polish nobility was allegedly "very different to the rest of Europe"? Why? - "Very different" - wow.

I mean in the sense of their percentage, their makeup, their freedoms, their politics, dress, etc etc.

in "Rising 44" he skips mentioning the Polish last names,

Yes, I'm aware of this, and thought it was a good idea to attract and hold a wider audience. Speaking of names, I read a post on this forum recently where a monument has been erected in Warsaw to an Indian Maharajah who adopted Polish children during WW2 - his name was shortened so as to make it easier for Poles to pronounce. Swings and roundabouts my friend ;)

Hi Gene. Some Jewish Poles were ennobled after conversion to Catholicism. I think Davies sets out the numbers, and in what years, in God's Playground.
Puzzie 1 | 63
25 Jul 2012 #50
Ok

Gene, sorry, brother, for not writing yet on the subject of nobility- peasants relations. It's not that I'm disregarding you, only when I discuss a subject I try to have my facts right. It's common knloledge the noble tratment of peasantry in Poland wasn't nice, but I'd like to give you some good examples. I had a book with some graphic descriptions and I've been looking for it unsuccessfully.

Yes, I'm aware of this, and thought it was a good idea to attract and hold a wider audience

I don't think it's a good idea; to me it's a fishy, political move. If Anglo-language audience can tolerate, for instance, full, unshortened Russian or indeed East Indian names, it can tolerate Polish ones as well.
jeff7202012
13 Jun 2014 #51
I am an American with 100% Polish bloodline and I am trying to search the meaning of my family coat of arms. My surname is Jaskolka and the crest has a completely red backround and what appears to be 4 (four) post's or column's holding up a geometrically shaped roof in the color gold. If anyone can help me I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for any help.
Rocco
26 Jun 2014 #52
What is on the shield, is NOT a "crest". It is part of the heraldic achievement, called "the arms". The "crest" is placed on the helmet.
Disgruntled
27 Mar 2015 #53
Merged: Genealogy and heraldry: closely linked....

Hi there! Thanks for accepting me into this forum. Considering how many people of Polish descent live in Anglo-Saxon acountires there is surprisingly little (or accessible) literature on Polish heraldry. I am sure that if we look back far enough we will find ancestors with the right to bear coat-of-arms. These guys are looking to translate a 100 year old book on Polish heraldry (that was originally written in German) into the English language. Anybody know of an English book on Polish heraldry? Most things I find tend to be in Polish.

kickstarter.com/projects/1744204763/polish-armorial-heraldry-of-the-polish-nobility-in
lainey
9 Jul 2019 #54
Zalenski?
Sheri135 - | 2
29 Apr 2020 #55
Hello: Can anyone tell me what this coat of arms might mean. My great grandparents and many of their ancestors were part of this clan.

Thanks,
Sherry



Miloslaw 7 | 3,256
29 Apr 2020 #56
@Sheri135

Apparently it was used by many families.
Check this link out and see if your family name is listed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabie_coat_of_arms
Sheri135 - | 2
29 Apr 2020 #57
Yes, I see one of the surnames listed, Czarnowski.

Apparently it was used by many families.
Check this link out and see if your family name is listed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabie_coat_of_arms


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