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Kefir drink in Poland


mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,791
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15 Feb 2017  #31

A couple of years ago I remember trucks selling unpasturized milk on the streets of Budapest, it was in a big tank and people brought their own empty bottles.

I've also seen dispensing machines (I think in Slovenia too).

DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #32

It was undoubtedly pasteurized. I don't think you understand what pasteurization is, and why milk is practically always pasteurized before it is sold, and has been for a long, long time. No business wants to take on the staggering financial risk of selling unpasteurized milk to the public, and, even if, they have little stomach for the very costly and difficult transport and distribution of a product that is exceedingly perishable. Even pasteurized milk is no picnic to distribute.
mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,791
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #33

It was undoubtedly pasteurized

Nope. Look up "raw milk" and Slovenia (or Italy).

telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/is-raw-unpasteurised-milk-safe-does-it-taste-better

thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/raw-milk-machines-everywhere-in-europe-why-not-in-the-usa-and-canada

Haven't seen them in Poland yet.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #34

@mafketis

The first article clearly says that you can get this only from the farmer, not beyond the farm gate, and not at all in Scotland.

The second article is just plain wrong about it not being pasteurized. Of course it is pasteurized. The author doesn't have the slightest clue what she is talking about. The whole article is a hilarious load of utter BS that she just made up.
mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,791
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #35

The second article is just plain wrong about it not being pasteurized. Of course it is pasteurized.

Then why is it marketed as 'raw'? The following story indicates they are filled daily by a single farmer (with safety measures in place though the system is not perfect).

modernfarmer.com/2014/03/americans-envy-europes-raw-milk-vending-machines
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #36

@mafketis

Somebody just got the idea that the word for "fresh" must mean "unpasteurized". Of course, they were wrong. They have those "mlekomaty" in Poland, too. And, like elsewhere, they dispense fresh, but pasteurized, milk. Sloppy journalism. Nothing else.

Like I said, no distributor in a civilized country is going to screw around with unpasteurized milk. The financial risks are way too high. An occasional farmer might, especially if slapping a health warning on it is enough to limit his liability, as the first article seems to suggest. But no one else on the distribution chain would even give it a serious thought.

Another clue: raw milk advocates are as clueless and credible as antivaxers, creationists, alt-med types and other conspiracy theorists. They love to make arrant BS up, and do so with gusto and abandon.
Atch Activity: 8 / 1,298
Joined: 1 Apr 2015 ♀
 
15 Feb 2017  #37

The second article is just plain wrong about it not being pasteurized.

If you read the comments, somebody who lives in Italy points out that these machines are mostly in rural areas and located close to farms, so I would conclude that they are indeed filled with genuine raw milk.

not beyond the farm gate

Well there are certainly farms in England who deliver unpasteurised milk to the doorstep and Hook & Son supplied raw milk to Selfridges in London, which is a huge department store:

hookandson.co.uk/Selfridges/index.html

However it's been withdrawn because of the dithering of the FSA.

In England, Wales and NI farms can sell either at the farm, at farmers' markets or through a doorstep delivery service but they're not allowed to supply supermarkets. There are about two hundred raw milk distributors in the UK.
muu  
15 Feb 2017  #38

In Poland, there used to be "mlekomats", where one could buy real, unpasteurised milk:

palcelizac.gazeta.pl/palcelizac/1,110783,10233530,Krowa_w_wielkim_miescie.html

These habe been closed down a year ago, as being unprofitable, but I hope that PiS decides to sponsor it, so mlekomats will make a return.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #39

In England, Wales and NI farms can sell either at the farm, at farmers' markets or through a doorstep delivery service but they're not allowed to supply supermarkets.

The first article clearly contradicts that, and says that it must be sold directly by the farmer himself on his own farm, and nowhere else or by nobody else. There are no raw milk "distributors" in the UK. Maybe 200 farmers who may sell raw milk directly to consumers within the confines of their farm, at least occasionally, and they have to pass through a load of regulatory hoops to do so, and slap a big health warning on the bottle. Even that doesn't protect them from liability, as the article goes on to show.

The last thing the FSA or anyone else in the EU wants is an outbreak of something nasty like antibiotic resistant TB. The cost to taxpayers would be enormous, much more than the worth of many dairy farms.

As for the mlekomat in Slovenia, that seems to be very similar. It must be operated by a tightly regulated farmer with strict monitoring and with all milk sold within 24 hours of collection or else discarded, with a big fat health warning. There can be no distributor or middleman, not that anyone would want to touch it with a twenty-foot bargepole, anyways. My bet is that that will be stopped after an outbreak or two. It would take just one single case of septic abortion to have lawmakers calling for blood and banning in the whole country. Ticking time bomb. An even safer bet is that it will be outlawed even before then due to pressure from the EU, who are out to greatly reduce the number of dairy farmers in the EU as it is.

You are aware that, prior to pasteurization, milk was by far the most dangerous foodstuffs on the market, even with modern handling, hygiene and refrigeration? It's even nastier now because the bugs it spreads are often resistant to antibiotics (more than 50% of all antibiotics produced in the world are given to dairy cows). Raw milk is still the most dangerous food available on the world market, and the most common infectious disease in the world is still milk-transmitted tuberculosis. Something you, as a citizen of a developed country, don't have to worry about thanks to pasteurization and vigilant government health organizations like the FSA, whose feet you should be gratefully kissing.

Sorry, but the whole "raw milk" fad is just a bunch of silly, romantic nonsense,
Atch Activity: 8 / 1,298
Joined: 1 Apr 2015 ♀
 
15 Feb 2017  #40

Yes, here's one Mlekomat supplier, the link is in English and it clearly states that it's milk straight from the cow'.

mlekomat.com/en/

There are also numerous articles online about ones that have closed down. What a shame. It's probably lack of an advertising and marketing budget (Polish small businesses are very weak in that area in any case) so not able to draw enough customers.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #41

It's probably lack of an advertising and marketing budget

No, It's probably because of the costs associated with complying with regulations. The vet bills alone would be considerable. Muu already pointed out that they have closed shop in Poland a year ago. It's only a matter of time before they do so in the other countries, too. There is little appetite for loosening regulations on dairy farmers in the EU. Officials wish most of them would just go out of business as it is. especially the smaller operations. It just costs too much to supervise them, and overproduction of dairy has been causing diplomatic headaches for many decades now. Poland itself got heavily fined last year for dairy overproduction.
Atch Activity: 8 / 1,298
Joined: 1 Apr 2015 ♀
 
15 Feb 2017  #42

Something you, as a citizen of a developed country, don't have to worry about thanks to pasteurization and vigilant government health organizations like the FSA, whose feet you should be gratefully kissing.

Well firstly Dominic, I myself do not drink milk of any kind, I loathe and detest it and always have done. However, I do feel that people should be able to drink it they want to and in fact in Ireland where I come from, we can still do so. There was a proposed ban back in 2011/2012 but it was defeated and now raw milk can, in theory be bought anywhere, including retail outlets. To be honest, in Ireland it's somewhat different, because our milk and dairy produce is of exceptional quality as the small herds are raised in virtually organic conditions, fed entirely on grass and clover in open air pastures the whole year round.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #43

However, I do feel that people should be able to drink it they want to

No, you don't, because you have to pay for it. Even a small outbreak costs taxpayers tens of millions of Euros to contain, and potentially billions of Euros if it gets out of hand. I doubt that you would feel thrilled when you get stuck with the bill, or if you catch antibiotic resistant TB from someone who got infected by drinking raw milk. The cost of living in a civilized society is not being allowed to do things that cost your fellow citizens their hard-earned money or that endanger their health and safety.
Atch Activity: 8 / 1,298
Joined: 1 Apr 2015 ♀
 
15 Feb 2017  #44

the most common infectious disease in the world is still milk-transmitted tuberculosis

I doubt that you would feel thrilled when you get stuck with the bill

If you mean bovine TB and Brucelosis I've already paid that bill! It was finally eliminated from Irish herds a few years ago. No idea what the situation is in Poland, would you know?
Atch Activity: 8 / 1,298
Joined: 1 Apr 2015 ♀
 
15 Feb 2017  #45

I should point out that it's not a one-off, fix it solution though. The TB management system in Ireland is continuous, it's been running since the 1950s so it's just a normal part of where our taxes go.
mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,791
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #46

the whole "raw milk" fad is just a bunch of silly, romantic nonsense

I won't argue with you on that. My point was that it does exist as a commercial product in some parts of Europe, which you seemed to not realize.
Ziemowit Activity: 7 / 2,248
Joined: 8 May 2009 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #47

No idea what the situation is in Poland, would you know?

Poland was declared free from bovine TB in 1975 and from brucelosis in 1980. The EU officially acknowledged Poland being free from those diseases in 2009 (decision 2009/342 and decision 2009/600).

16 EU countries (BE, CZ, DK, DE, EE, FR, LV, LU, HU, NL, AT, PL, SI, SK, FI, SE) are free from the former ...

.... and 18 (BE, CZ, DK, DE, EE, FR, IE, LV, LU, LT, NL, AT, PL, RO, SI, SK, FI, SE) from the latter.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,605
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
15 Feb 2017  #48

@mafketis

I was aware of farmers selling it at the targowisko, but not elsewhere. And I'm still skeptical that this is as widespread as the hype would have it. Hard to find sources that I can trust. But I don't think it will take long for this to be stopped, as is already the case in Poland.

I can see the farmers' point of view. Small scale dairy is minimally profitable, or downright unprofitable, and they are desperate to increase their meager earnings. They don't have anything to lose, even if they do end up getting sued. They've reached the point where they care more about filling their own empty bellies than about the lives of their neighbors' children. I don't sympathize with them much, though, as the taxpayer already has to pay to subsidize their existence as it is. It would be cheaper if they were just on the dole. I understand why the EU is pursuing as scorched earth policy against dairy farmers, and rightly so, but I have no romantic delusions that the dairy farmers should be protected. They've become costly parasites, and are damaging economies both inside the EU and beyond. I have little love for Thatcher, but she did have a point about the miners. Same thing here.
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,047
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
16 Feb 2017  #49

There are also numerous articles online about ones that have closed down. What a shame.

The problem is the logistics more than anything else. It has to go straight from the cow to the mlekomat, and it has to be kept in very careful conditions. It's nearly impossible to make it work for 3-4zł/litre, yet the market won't really support much more than that price.

But yes, it's still available in some places, and they are also found in the Czech Republic. It's a fantastic idea, it's just a huge pity the market doesn't support them enough.
Polonius3 Activity: 984 / 11,515
Joined: 11 Apr 2008 ♂
 
16 Feb 2017  #50

dispensing machines

They tried some kind of fresh milk dispensing machines in Poland coupla years ago but later moved away from it. Dunno why.
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,047
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
16 Feb 2017  #51

They're still around, just not as common as they were. The official reason was blamed on problems with building permissions, but from what I know, it was simply a matter of economics.

It's a shame, I was a huge fan of them, and it was one of the products that Poland could have made famous.
Cardno85 Activity: 31 / 957
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 ♂
 
17 Feb 2017  #52

I was a huge fan of them

Me too, really good on porridge!

There was one next to my flat in Kraków but not sure if it's still there. It had notices confirming it was unpasteurised and it came from a farm on a monastery. I think the economics of it depend the area. The mlekomat there was filled daily and if you went in the evening it was often empty, but if it wasn't selling out every day, it would be hard to justify the cost of keeping the milk in such careful conditions from the cow to the machine.
mafketis Activity: 16 / 3,791
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 ♂
 
17 Feb 2017  #53

They tried some kind of fresh milk dispensing machines in Poland coupla years ago but later moved away from it.

I'm thinking that while there are some things that Poland does really well dairy products are kind of hit and miss and I think most Polish people just aren't that picky about them.

I'm still bummed that they just completely dumped the glass milk bottle system they had in place in the early 90s in favor of plastic... I used to love the little bottles of cream with the foil tops.




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Kefir drink in Poland
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