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Updated rules


Lenka 3 | 2,876
17 Apr 2017 #91
What astonishes me is the lack of communication. First the limit on words in a quote (that if I remember was explained only after it was introduced) and now a warning and removing of a post without as much as a "hey guys, we are trying to do this and that so the new rule is..." Is it really so hard to tell us beforehand what you expect of us? Now other issues:

-One, it has nothing to do with how easy the conversation flows. If someone doesn't like quotes then they don't have to read them. Others, the ones not obsessed with this place and who don't remember who said what after one reading, may find they are loosing the hang of the conversation are are not sure if someone is talking about point 1 or point 2.

-Two, you are focusing on trivial things like that before making sure that this place doesn't give new ppl gag reflex when they see what kind of rubbish one can find here.

-Three, obviously the Admin doesn't know this place too well if he claims that ppl don't skip through pages to read back on posts they are responding to.

-Four, everyone has their own writing style and whether or not one likes it she spends a lot of time to give full and informed response. You allow abusive ppl with nothing to say about Poland to roam free yet she, who posts about Poland and doesn't offend, get's her post removed without a word. Maybe some respect for ppl who give their time to fill this place with meaningful content? The same was with Pawian- maybe the only one who created interesting, Poland oriented threads time after time.

-Five,

What is the rationale behind this?
My response1.

Are you saying that long posts, which by their ...
My response2..

it seems our Admin is five and instead of addressing the issues makes some silly gesture. For your information the quotes didn't discurage me but your silly demonstration did.

-Six,

The rationale is that most readers are discouraged by excessive quotes (they skip/don't read them).

I'm sure it's not only your assumption but you , for example, made a survey on PF that I missed?
Seven, we hear all the time of how trolls can't be stopped because of freedom of speech but apparently we can be told how we want to structure our responses.

And the silliest thing is that not so many ppl quote more than few times but because of how silly this thing was handled we have all this mess. Maybe we should really focus on changes with a bit more merit and leave ppl who like to quote to themselves? Because I doubt the quotes in Paulina's post would discourage anyone from joining but the swearing, insulting etc already did cost PF some posters.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Apr 2017 #92
Maybe we should really focus on changes with a bit more merit and leave ppl who like to quote to themselves?

There's a very simple change that would improve this place dramatically: give everyone 24 hours warning that any abuse towards another poster will be met with a ban. After 24 hours, don't warn, simply ban posters on sight for a week for doing it. I can guarantee that the place will be much busier and will thrive, as the worst trolls on here with zero knowledge of Poland will simply vanish if they can't say things like "poster child for abortion" towards other posters.

I dare say the posters who are here to genuinely talk about Poland will simply modify their behaviour to suit the new regime.
johnny reb 37 | 7,714
17 Apr 2017 #93
Since this is an American based forum about Poland and Polish people I think the only ones allowed to post here should be Polish people and people of Polish ancestry.

To have ex-pats from the EU pretending to speak with authority for the Country of Poland is just plain unacceptable.
We have seen some members that have been banned several times come back and stir the pot a little more each time by stalking and provoking other members.

That became apparent when such trolls were banned and how glaringly smooth everything ran here without their provoking insults.
One of them even commented to me how it was "Our Forum" and for me to get out.
Once the rules are updated to ban these trolls, Again, things will quiet right down.
Lyzko 36 | 8,471
17 Apr 2017 #94
I'd always thought that this was a British-based forum with international participants aka "members"!
Sure glad you straightened us out about that:-)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Apr 2017 #95
To have ex-pats from the EU pretending to speak with authority for the Country of Poland is just plain unacceptable.

So, if you don't like it, start your own forum. You're more than welcome to do so.
Lyzko 36 | 8,471
17 Apr 2017 #96
But that'd take too much initiative, Delph! Always easier just to complain:-)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Apr 2017 #97
Heck, I'll even help him set it up. Doesn't take much effort, and Johnny can obsess over rules and moderation methods to his heart's content there.

I think he'll be happier on his own forum anyway, as he can control his (and everyone else's) posts too. No pesky Admin sending them to exile for a start ;)
Lyzko 36 | 8,471
17 Apr 2017 #98
I'm sure you would, only do you really trust his judgment in starting his own forum if he's so free with loose talk as he is on this one??? Who does he think he is, President Trump??LOL

You'd do well to consider your actions!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Apr 2017 #99
I'm sure you would, only do you really trust his judgment in starting his own forum if he's so free with loose talk as he is on this one?

Well, I think he would be much happier on his own forum. He wouldn't have to beg Admin to warn/ban other posters, he wouldn't have to worry about moderation and he could ban all the posters that don't agree with him.
Lyzko 36 | 8,471
17 Apr 2017 #100
How right you are!
Admin 32 | 1,530 Administrator
17 Apr 2017 #101
Far more readers are discouraged by the vile racism that has unfortunately become the main thing that PF is known for.

If PF is known for 'racism,' you as the top poster are part of it? Either way, in order to determine 'racism' you MUST know the race of the person making a statement. We do not have any field related to 'Race:' - so how can you know a poster's race and determine whether they are racist or not?

So in order to ban something, we must agree what it is. So - what are 'racist posts'? Let the top posters post their short definition here so that moderators could understand better how to spot racism and racist posts.

If someone doesn't like quotes then they don't have to read them.

'Not reading' = scrolling on mobile devices. The less scrolling the better.

rubbish one can find here.

You are a top poster here; is it equal to rubbish poster?

we hear all the time of how trolls can't be stopped because of freedom of speech

DEFINE: TROLLS so that moderators could gather more info.
spiritus 69 | 666
17 Apr 2017 #102
I kind of feel a little sorry for Admin.

There are people on this forum who will obsess about a point, turn it upside down and discuss it inside out with not much of a point being made at all !

Perhaps let common sense prevail i.e.

1/ Keep a thread on topic although this might require more scrutiny from admin or moderators which may not really be feasible.

2/ Only allow members who have contributed 5 (or 10) posts in an existing thread to be able to start a new topic. Perhaps the forum already has this rule-I don't know......

3/ Only post about things that relate to Poland

We can all think of other suggestions but we are all adults and I presume moderating this board is a voluntary endeavour so we can't expect constant reviews of posts etc
Lenka 3 | 2,876
17 Apr 2017 #103
I really don't want to offend you but it starts to look like you are a Sleeping Beauty that just got woken up by a Prince.

As to racism- you can find all forms of that on here. From clear messages stating that black, Asian ppl are worse kind of human beings (although this usually by guest posters), through condemning/ridiculing/diminishing mixed race couples/kids to jumping on new posters that seem to be of different race/culture. And of course when new posters that are not white Christians ask about Polish girls they hear that Polish girls are too smart/stupid to spread/not spread their legs. But why ask us? If you think you might be immune ot too thick skinned ask some calm sensible centrist person to read random for few days.

99,9% of the time I use mobile to view PF and somehow I prefer to scroll down few quotes rather than few posts or even through pages because I don't understand the points that are being made.

I don't know what you understand as a top poster and I definately wouldn't call myself one but when I talk about the rubbish in here I mean the content. Constant insults (idiots, morons, libtard, Bible belt psychos etc), bunch of threads that go nowhere and are used mostly to a kindergarden - like quarrels in the style of 'I'm right', 'no you are not!', 'oh yes I am?' (Look at threads about guns in USA, Trump, PiS ), not talking but repeating the same slogans over and over again (as one example check the sentence 'Make America Great Again'), basically all kind of hatred and the deep conflict between ppl that forces them to get blind and go through various threads following each other and arguing no matter if they actually agree or not.

Now there are all kinds of trolls. Not including the simplest and obvious troll you can have:
- posters that will make everything personal and will use any possibility to attack each other (e.g. Harry, Johnny, Delph, Bieganski). Follow each other trough threads, sometimes post solely to attack each other. They will never agree on anything and unless separated by strict rules will offend, ignite

- Posters that pretend to create new content but in reality spamming PF with the same message just dressed differently (e.g. Polonius with PiS, Crow with Serbie)

- posters that avoid threads about Poland like a plague and instead hug close to all the inflammatory, chaotic off-topic thread...
Admin 32 | 1,530 Administrator
17 Apr 2017 #104
clear messages stating that black, Asian ppl are worse kind of human beings

An example?

although this usually by guest posters

Translation: cannot find examples of posters writing that {color} people are worse kind of human beings.

condemning/ridiculing/diminishing mixed race couples/kids

What about posters who ridicule people who get married too young or who happen to marry an alcoholic or who are not as successful as their friends or who go to church or who go to 'stupid entertaining shows' or who drink too much soda? Why are you being so unfair to all these other groups of people - is it ok to criticize/ridicule/diminish them? If not, then is it ok to disagree or disagreement is something that should be banned?

If we ban opinions then we can ban anything that goes. Do you really want moderators to ban according to their own preferences (if they ban a poster who criticizes eating meat on Fridays, then they can also ban a poster who is okay with buying animal-tested perfumes). In the end, every statement could be a good cause to ban someone because someone else could get hurt by the thoughts or opinions of the poster. Is it what an ideal forum would look like in your world?

I really don't want to offend you but it starts to look like you are a Sleeping Beauty

In fact, I found it offensive and it hurt my feeling (I'm speaking in the name of all forum admins who have been called a similar way). So..it should be a good reason to ban you, shouldn't it? (if not, then why not?)

- posters that avoid threads about Poland like a plague and instead hug off-topic threads...

Agreed - off-topic posters may receive a warning / possible suspension quickly these days.
Lenka 3 | 2,876
18 Apr 2017 #105
You wanted examples of racism you got them. You can do whatever you want with that including nothing at all but then don't get all ''what is racism '. If you think racist remarks are ok in the name of freedom of speech than simply say it.

With your remarks about 'hurt feelings' and 'what's racism' you don't really address the issue of nastiness on here. Do you really see no differences between this forum and others? You see no problem at all even though big part of your regular posters of opposing teams say there is a problem?

And if everything is gravy in your opinion what's the reason for all these old posters not posting anymore and almost no new regular posters?

You make new rules and technical changes while the forum is slowly suffocating. Maybe you are right and it's not the nastiness that drives ppl away but something does. So maybe instead of limit quotation or remove Polish letters for ppl who doesn't use Polish keyboard(sic!)you could figure out and tell us what makes this place so hermetically oriented.

Unless of course you think that PF outlived it's usefulness which is fine as well as it's your forum.
nothanks - | 640
18 Apr 2017 #106
- "Do you really see no differences between this forum and others?"
American forums, British forums, German forums - maybe. Polish forums - No. I post on numerous Polish forums and this place with it's diverse viewpoints is right on par with the rest. Polish culture is different than American, British and German so our online posting communities are also different.

- "even though big part of your regular posters of opposing teams say there is a problem"
Whiners and people demanding chaaaaaange always have the loudest voices. A person satisfied with this forum doesn't feel the need to voice their support.

- "what's the reason for all these old posters not posting anymore and almost no new regular posters"
Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. This classic style of online posting is a dying breed. 5+ years ago this was one of the only Polish outlets in English. Now you have subreddits and even Facebook groups dedicated completely to Poland/Polish culture.

I've seen it countless times - these classic forums begin censoring to "draw new posters" and before you know it you lose the ones you had. This place has a strong base of posters that frequent. Don't sacrifice that in exchange for hope and change. There is a healthy dose of diverse thought here. People with thin skin don't last long on the Internet anyway - they will just find another reason this place "isn't right" and they will leave
nothanks - | 640
18 Apr 2017 #107
If there is a problem - it's simply the outdated setup. Notice articles aren't being posted often. Linking youTUBE videos either doesn't work or are taken down by Mods. I always figured that's because of bandwidth. Almost everything posted here is anecdotal - "this is what I think, feel or experienced". There isn't much outside sources being posted and that goes back to the outdated setup. I feel as if I'm the only one posting pictures haha. Meanwhile other online sources allow animated GIF files. We don't even have avatars LOL.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
18 Apr 2017 #108
Now that almost everyone seems to be criticizing Admin, I am going to stand in his defence. There was a time when I was criticizing Admin, but no one else did it at that time. My point then was that if things did not improve, the forum would loose members. It is presicely what has happend and the forum lost a lot of active members as a result. This was a time when calling someone "liar" was an outrageous thing whereas in these days this is not even considered an insult on the PF! Poster commonly known today as Harold used to call almost every Pole and every Pol-American with that name back then while at the same time he was carefully avoiding applying that name to the rest of the world on the forum. No action was ever taken against him beause of this. And that was indeed the very act of "active" aggresion aptly intermingled with something we can refer to as the "passive" one.

I guess I was the first one who spotted and whistle-blowed this art of manipulation to the rest of PF. I started to dig up for evidence in older posts, but then Ms Atch who is in general a very sane and sensible person on the forum came up to reprimand me for that by declaring to everyone that I tend to keep "index cards" against members, something which amounted to a suggestion I was an MI5 or a KGB man or something.

But it is all over now. The infamous gang of some British members who acted for so long in cooperation and coordination trying to infame Poland for various things in history (the famous "Nazi-Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia" of 1938 comes to mind) has been smashed now. The Darwinian mechanisms of natural selection have shown their power with the result that members who didn't like the PF or were too frigile or weak have left. There now exists some kind of balance in delivering insults once the British have been deprived of the leading role in this. Let us continue in this way by letting the natural forces of evolution work. If the forum evolves in a good or in a bad direction is a different matter. The forum reflects the character of its members and this is all there is to it.
Lenka 3 | 2,876
18 Apr 2017 #109
I'm Polish and read Polish discussions. And the places with similar comments have as fruitless 'conversations' as here. And I don't mean opposing views and lively debate. The thing is there is almost no real debate here.

Of the regular poster we had complains from Harry, Johnny, Delph, Atch, Paulina, Cbemikiem, Jon... Even if you dismiss is it as moaners they are also main contributors to this forum.

I'm one of the ppl who post less because of the atmosphere here and maybe that's why I feel so strongly about it.

I agree that forums are in decline but I think this place completely shut itself down. I'm a member since 2009 and it saddens me to see that of new posters I can only see Atch and Notty really taking part.

Plus if you notice I included the option of the forum simply heading towards it's natural end.

Notice articles aren't being posted often. Linking youTUBE videos either doesn't work or are taken down by Mods.

I must agree here. Articles can't be posted in full due to the copyright and links are disabled due to them getting inactive with time and the work it takes the mods to remove them when they do (at least that was the explanation given when they played with ,again,Paulina's post) something an option of 'report a broken link' could take care of imo.

I myself played with an idea of creating a thread with materials for kids in Polish that could be used by mixed nationality couples or ppl who want to show their kids their ancestors culture by posting kids poems, videos with songs, old games etc. I think with the range of ages and experiences we could come up with quite an interesting and varied set that would include real treasures beyond Fasolki songs,Tuwin and Brzechwa (even though they would be included as well). But why should I bother with finding the material and posting it when it'll just end up chopped up?
nothanks - | 640
18 Apr 2017 #110
^ Ziemowit

Spot on. I remember this time period of the forum. Poland/Poles/Polish culture was constantly criticized and rebuttal was trash canned into the Off-Topic thread. I took a break from the forum soon after. But I returned and was happily surprised to notice this double standard ended. Now there are diverse opinions from Poles, Polonia, and foreigners. I personally like that within these separate groups you will encounter varying viewpoints I.E. the poles aren't always on the defense and the foreigners aren't always on the attack. I still communicate with a girl I befriended on here but she has stopped posting over 4 years ago. When I asked why she didn't give me a definite answer, she just moved onto other hobbies.

IMO because of the barebones setup and appearance of the forum - you have to either live in Poland, have Polish heritage or be really interested in Polish current events/history to continue coming back. There just isn't much more available in terms of entertainment on here. Just people discussing and arguing. And that's why I keep coming back
nothanks - | 640
18 Apr 2017 #111
Lenka,

For me: there are better (in insight/accuracy and quickness in response ) outlets for information on everyday issues in Poland. This is kind of the place to discuss non-Politically Correct problems or events. I.E. asking how to get around a ticket, bribing officials or handling divorce. Typically discussions that result in closed threads and/or banning on other forums. For as much time as I spend on here, I only frequent 1 or 2 threads. Everything else just seems so random and the threads are from 5+ years ago [Poland has changed much in this time period]. Also "I'm a foreign Man and I want a Polish girl" has to be without a doubt the most popular post/thread on this forum. At-least over the past 5 years as Poland has improved I have noticed more "I'm a foreign Man and I want a Polish job" threads :)

I think an aesthetic makeover would really do this place some good but I have no idea about the budget of this place. It truly is an eyesore - just blocks of writing, a grey background and some borders. Anyway, I'm out of ideas but I enjoyed reading your post and will continue following the discussion.
Lenka 3 | 2,876
18 Apr 2017 #112
Oh, of course there are better sources for news since here only one poster bothers to post it and he's not even trying to pretend he's objective. And I do like it that ppl can ask about all kind of questions and that's not the merit of my complaints. What I do mind is the silly aggression and pointless offences. We throw empty words like 'libtard', 'right wing nutjob' and discuss our political affiliation instead. A great example could be a discussion about 500+ program when one side says 'it's a program for pathological families to buy their votes and you like it because you are a Catholib' and the other 'it's a blessing for Polish ppl from PiS and you don't like it because you are a nasty libtard'. What I would like to see is a discussion on both sides about the merit of it. Will it increase birth rate and wether it will be because ppl will feel safer to have children or because children will give them money to live a life without a job, can we afford it and if not what other means can be implemented and so on. We have nothing like that here. If we talk about refugees why don't we discuss how to make sure real war victims are helped and kids don't suffer even more? For example I read an article that there is big problem with mothers and newborns (mother's loose milk due to stress and formula is scarse). Or how to effectively and without a prejudice sort out the mess and help real victims and send out the rest? Instead of that we have 'we should take them in' 'no we shouldn't going over and over again. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist believing it's possible. How ironic it would be if I got what I wanted and ppl just stopped coming here (including me) because it's not the spiteful little place it is now.

Haha, true, the change from a girl to a job is a sign Poland is making progress and starts to be viewed as a good place to live (even if for now it's usually the first step in the journey towards the west.

Actually the layout is one of the things I really like about PF. It's clean, organised and easy to follow and navigate. But then I'm old-old-fashioned kind of girl :P
mafketis 35 | 12,590
18 Apr 2017 #113
there are better sources for news since here only one poster bothers to post it

I've tried to start numerous news threads only to see almost all of them attached to other, (usually unrelated or only marginally related) threads often with wildly misleading names. I gave up which is, I guess, what the mods, want.
Lenka 3 | 2,876
18 Apr 2017 #114
That's what I meant when I wrote about respect towards the posters. The effort ppl put towards finding stuff, often translating etc is not something that is considered. I will once again mention Pawian who (whether someone liked him or not) was putting a lot of effort in his threads, the material, the structure. One day Admin was cleaning the forum and changed the title or merged it (can't remember which) and when confronted said that it's better title or set up and that's that. Pawian of course felt it was stupid and left the forum.

Of course the Admin has the right to do it but would it hurt him if he for example after the complaint said 'ok, I understand your feelings maybe we can come up with a title that works for both of us?'' It's possible he wouldn't agree and left anyway but maybe not? Forum can't function without posters and if one wants a meaningful content it has to come from somewhere. Disregarding the feelings of posters when their own threads are involved is one of the reasons we are where we are.

I know that mod/admin job is hard and that there is plenty of ppl who complain about this,that and the other and it's impossible to please everyone but there are situations here that are simply ridiculous.
OP Harry
18 Apr 2017 #115
So - what are 'racist posts'? Let the top posters post their short definition here so that moderators could understand better how to spot racism and racist posts.

A post which aims a racist slur at other posters is an example of racism. I'm amazed that somebody who has autoblocked the word n*gger can't understand that.

Agreed - off-topic posters may receive a warning / possible suspension quickly these days.

Not only these days, warnings have for years been handed out for going off-topic while they aren't for racist and homophobic abuse.

I know that mod/admin job is hard and that there is plenty of ppl who complain about this,that and the other and it's impossible to please everyone but there are situations here that are simply ridiculous.

It's a real pity you can't be persuaded to come back as a mod.

I'd like to reply to more points which people have made but I'm at my quote limit for this post.
jon357 71 | 21,107
18 Apr 2017 #116
Not only these days, warnings have for years been handed out for going off-topic while they aren't for racist and homophobic abuse.

This is something that has been going on for a long time.

It's a real pity you can't be persuaded to come back as a mod.

Very much so.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Apr 2017 #117
So in order to ban something, we must agree what it is.

Well, let's talk about abuse and blatantly off-topic posts with the sole intention of provoking other posters. For example

polishforums.com/usa-canada/american-criminals-54827/3/#msg1588147

The post here has nothing to do with the topic. No-one took the bait, but the only purpose of posting such a post in a thread about Polish-American Criminals was to provoke others.

polishforums.com/news/poland-brexit-affect-immigrants-77775/16/#msg1587773

Another one. The whole thing reads like an attack on British people and has nothing to do with the topic (Brexit).

OK, so let's move on. Next exhibit:

polishforums.com/life/poland-muslims-seen-deterrent-75084/8/#msg1589553

The post here has clearly nothing to do with the subject and instead consists of a personal attack.

polishforums.com/news/streets-closed-warsaw-nato-summit-78400/5/#msg1588980

Another personal attack here on Notty, with nothing to do with the topic.

polishforums.com/study/poland-ethics-teachers-dating-students-80766/#msg1584247

And again - an unprovoked personal attack on Jon's sexuality.

All of those posts above are off-topic and contain unprovoked abuse aimed towards other posters. Instead of arguing about the definition of racism, why not put a stop to such posts that are clearly completely off-topic and posted with the sole intention of ridiculing/insulting other posters?
mafketis 35 | 12,590
18 Apr 2017 #118
abuse and blatantly off-topic posts with the sole intention of provoking other posters

Luv ya, delph, but remember about those people in glass houses....
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Apr 2017 #119
Oh, totally. That's why I suggest a blanket ban on such posts, and anyone doing it should immediately get kicked to the kerb. No discussion, no debate, just a straight forward ban for a week for doing it. It will soon stop - on all sides :)
OP Harry
18 Apr 2017 #120
That's why I suggest a blanket ban on such posts, and anyone doing it should immediately get kicked to the kerb.

I'd certainly support that. Much better that this place is improved than allowed to carry on getting worse.

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