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Translation Needed: Zuzanna Danilowicz's Birth Record; And a P.S.


Nickidewbear 23 | 569
11 Mar 2019  #1
szukajwarchiwach.pl/63/167/0/1/39/skan/full/gpOL5IJbOb2HffQlwm1cYQ

Record 56

PS Now I know why they mentioned Lipsk specifically
geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=B&w=10pl&rid=S&search_lastname=Danilowicz&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=&ordertable=[[0,%22asc%22],[1,%22asc%22],[2,%22asc%22]]&searchtable=&rpp1=50&rpp2=50

(Please, just for a moment, allow me to gloat...especially since I had to take pains, including literal pains with one of my fingers being a mouse finger as I type, livestrong.com/article/218011-how-to-exercise-the-mouse-finger

to prove that I'm Jewish):

ZuzannaDaniłowiczWojciechMariannaKrusińskaWigryKrasneMiejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Państwowe w Suwałkach

16-400 Suwałki, ul. Kościuszki 69Indeks dodał: Maślanek_Joanna
182471RozaliaDaniłowiczBartłomiejKlaraWarakomskaWigryPiertanieMiejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Państwowe w Suwałkach

16-400 Suwałki, ul. Kościuszki 69Indeks dodał: Maślanek_Joanna
182478JózefDaniłowiczAntoniRozaliaKrajewskaWigryKrasneMiejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Państwowe w Suwałkach

16-400 Suwałki, ul. Kościuszki 69Indeks dodał: Maślanek_Joanna
1824118KatarzynaDaniłowiczKrystyanFranciszkaJabłońskaWigryNowa WieśMiejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Państwowe w Suwałkach

16-400 Suwałki, ul. Kościuszki 69Indeks dodał: Maślanek_Joanna
1824124TomaszMichałowskiWojciechKatarzynaDaniłowiczWigryKruśnikMiejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Państwowe w Suwałkach

16-400 Suwałki, ul. Kościuszki 69Indeks dodał: Maślanek_Joanna
182513MejerLejzerowiczLejzerIdkaDanielowiczLipskLipskRemarks: karta: 8-9
Date of birth: 26.01.1825 r.Miejsce przechowywania ksiąg:
Archiwum Parafialne Indeks dodał: JZI
Weryfikował: kziecina

Also:

180980BerkoJankielowiczJoszkoSzejnaDaniłowiczRosochate KościelneRosochate ZalesieIndeks dodał: Raciborski_Marek

OP Nickidewbear 23 | 569
28 Mar 2019  #2
Anyone want to help me out here?
horizon
29 Apr 2019  #3
Polish to English translators might help.
poltran.com/
systransoft.com/lp/polish-english-translation/
translate.meta.ua/en/translator/polish/english/
translation2.paralink.com/Polish-English-Translator/
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 569
30 Apr 2019  #4
@horizon, I can't even read what it says; and no text is indexed on the archive site itself.
terri 1 | 1,624
30 Apr 2019  #5
There are records stored in Archiwum Panstwowe in Suwalki. You would need to go there to see the records. The first line of each index is the adress 'Suwalki, ul. Kosciuszki 69' and then the name of the person who added the record 'Maslanek Joanna'.

Make arrangements to see them and either go yourself or nominate a proxy. It is very likely that you would be able to obtain copies of the records they hold.

The separate line shows that this has come from the parish records of Rosochate Zalesie. .
kaprys 2 | 1,870
30 Apr 2019  #6
@Nickidewbear
What exactly do you want to be translated?
In the first link, there are several records, if you're talking about the second record on the left, it doesn't mention Lipsk - all I can read is 'miesiąca lipca' - the month of July. I can't read everything but I see no single mention of the religion of the baby born. Why do you assume she was Jewish? More importanty, are you sure it was your ancestor? Or just someone with a similar name?
TheOther 5 | 3,801
30 Apr 2019  #7
There are records stored in Archiwum Panstwowe in Suwalki.

Many records from that archive are online already:

namensindex.vffow.de/neues.php

Click on (Alle Archive) and select Suwalki from the drop-down menu. Good luck!
kaprys 2 | 1,870
30 Apr 2019  #8
Also Berko, Szejna or Lejzer are Jewish names while Zuzanna, Wojciech, Rozalia, Klara, Katarzyna etc aren't. I doubt anyone Jewish would use these Christian names to name their child in the first half of the 19th century ...
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
1 May 2019  #9
I believe in some countries, it might even have been forbidden by the Church!
"Approved Jewish" first or given names were often limited to "Sarah", "Ismael", "Israel", "Samuel" etc.
kaprys 2 | 1,870
1 May 2019  #10
They spoke Yiddish and followed their customs. They wouldn't have named their children Hans or Jean either. Times were different. Stop demonising the Church.

As we all know that your American haven isn't as perfect as you want us to believe. Have you commented here about the shooting in a synagogue in San Diego yet?

And since you claim your Polish is fluent, how about you help her with the translations instead of spreading your biases again.

I doubt it'd be Samuel. .. I guess you'd have to learn more about Polish Jews.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
1 May 2019  #11
Who's demonzing?

Merely stating the truth, plain and simple!
If you can't handle the unvarnished truth, don't go blaming me:-)

Apropos the undeniably tragic synagogue massacre No.2, the real lesson is NOT to have Jews even more militantly flaunting
their religious garb for all to see, both Jew and gentile, but rather, that ALL Jews are the same, and oughtn't be shunned for

being assimilated instead of belonging to the Lubovitch sect!

We all wound up in the same oven. Hitler made no disctinction, why the Lubovitch??
kaprys 2 | 1,870
1 May 2019  #12
Any source on your claim that 'in SOME countries' 'it MIGHT have been forbidden' by the Church?

Now try to google what Polish Jews of the era used instead of Samuel. I know. Do you? After all, it's part of your heritage as you claim.

But I guess helping Nicki with the records is more important right now.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
1 May 2019  #13
Any history of Christianity, not to mention Judaism, will recount the ordinances of the Catholic Church, making it a crime,
in Spain for instance, during and after the Auto da Fe, for the offspring of Jewish parents (not including the Moranos or
Conversos) to name their children by Christian names:-)
kaprys 2 | 1,870
1 May 2019  #14
Any source?
Anyway, what's the connection with the post?

And seriously speaking, are you interested in anything connected with Jewish culture and customs? So what's the yiddish equivalent of Samuel used by Polish Jews?
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
1 May 2019  #15
You asked the question of sources and I mentioned that any history explains all this.
Can't break it down for you any simpler:-)
kaprys 2 | 1,870
2 May 2019  #16
According to the Cambridge Dictionary a source is:

someone or something that supplies information:
The journalist refused to reveal her sources (= say who had given the information to her).
According to government sources (= people in the government) many MPs are worried about this issue.
According to congressional sources (= people who work in Congress) many Representatives are worried about this issue.
Always acknowledge your sources (= say which books you have used) at the end of a paper.

'Any history' is not enough. For example, I'm pretty interested in the etymology of names and historical changes so I would love to read an article about how the Church made it impossible to name Jewish children Wojciech or Franciszek.

I have even tried to google information about your claim about such cases in Spain and I failed. Will you help me out, please?

Have you managed to decipher the records?
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 569
2 May 2019  #17
Also Berko, Szejna or Lejzer are Jewish names while Zuzanna ...

Those were their secular names, and "Zuzanna" is directly from "Szoszanna" ("Shoshanna"). BTW, there are several Yiddish equivalents for Samuel (Sh'mu'el), among them: Shmuil (used on a Morgovich/Morgiewicz side in my family), Shmule, and Shmulke (a diminutive).

Wojciech: Adalbert, Avraham

Rozalia: usually for Rachel (Rachel, Rochla, etc. became Rose, Regina, Ruth, etc. and equivalents thereof. Incidentally, I still have no idea what happened to Rochla Andrelewitz.)

Klara (I'd have to look this up),
Katarzyna (I have seen Tsviya as the Hebrew name for Katarzyna, or Katherine).

Maryanna, by the way: Miriam Chana. And we were Ashkenazi equivalent of "marranos" at least as of 1843.

As for the record: Zuzanna was my great-great-grandfather Julian Czerniecki's maternal aunt

PS His Hebrew name was Yehudah-Yochanahn Efrayim. He may have used "Jankiel" or "Jankie" instead, as Great-Granduncle John was given "Jankie" for his middle name of "Felix"; and Great-Great-Granddad's secular name was Julian/Julius/Julias Jan Feliks; and he used "Ludwig" for Yehudah, often calqued as "Aryeh" or "Leib".

PPS Jews were actually often required to have secular names in many instances.

PPPS Anyway, the record is that of Zuzanna my great-great-grandfather Julian Czerniecki's maternal aunt.
kaprys 2 | 1,870
2 May 2019  #18
They wouldn't have put a Christian name in the birth act of a Jewish baby. And it doesn't matter some are equivalents of Hebrew names.

A Christian girl would have been registered as Ewa, and a Jewish one as Chawa.
Just like they would have used Szmul or Szlomo for Samuel.
Read into Jewish birth records for comparison.
And Yiddish names were used well into the 20th century.

Marianna was used by Catholics as Maria was just used only of Virgin Mary.
I see no reason why Jews would be forced to use 'secular' names - especially in birth records.
Also keep in mind that not everybody with the same (or similar) name is your family.
There's nothing in this birth record that would suggest Jewish roots - at least I can't see it. Perhaps there's information concerning wyznanie mojzeszowe that I can't decipher.

That doesn't, of course, rule out the fact that you might have had Jewish ancestors. Before WW2 there were only religious marriages, so perhaps someone converted to marry the man she loved. Or you might have had some frankists in your family tree. Afaik, thousands of them were baptised at some point - however, I don't know if they remained Catholic.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
2 May 2019  #19
I knew an older Polish-Jewish woman named Marianna, Jewish on both sides. She admitted to me however that her mother
gave her a typically non-Jewish, Polish given name so as it would be easier to assimilate into Polish society.

Subsequently, she married a gentile Pole and they moved to Upper Manhattan. By now, they're both in their late '80's, I'm sure:-)
kaprys 2 | 1,870
2 May 2019  #20
Was she born in the 1820s by any chance?

As for Marianna, it definitely wasn't a very common name in the 1930s. At that time Maria was already acceptable.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
2 May 2019  #21
Agreed.
To my certain knowledge, she was born around 1930 or so.
Names though are funny, aren't they! Often, they go through phases.
It's common here in the States to hear certain ethnicities prefer "old-fashioned" sounding American first names (particularly among girls) which whites haven't named their kids in surely more than sixty years, e.g. "Ethel", "Harriet", "Marie Lou" etc.

Then there also regional differences to contend with:-)
kaprys 2 | 1,870
3 May 2019  #22
@Lyzko
There's little similarity between prewar Poland and 21st century America, imho.
Marianna was definitely uncommon in the 1930s so if someone didn't want to stand out, they would have chosen Maria ... but since you're lucky enough to know enough Poles and Polish Jews in the US to support your every -even least probable -claim, on every topic, who am I to argue with it.

@Nickidewbear
Back on topic. There's one more thing to look for in old records (apart from wyznanie mojzeszowe), the word 'starozakonny' (starozakonni etc), which is an old fashioned way of referring to Jewish people (literally 'of the old order').

Here's how it's used:

starozakonni

And the site where I found it, which might be of some use for you
jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Poland/Questions.htm
Certain advice included there concerning looking for birth records would be sort of universal for different religions.
And as far as I am concerned, if you really want to find out the truth, it's high time to invest some time and money in professional help. Start with looking for the birth records of the last of your ancestors who was born in Poland, then their parents and so on.

It's hard to say if you succeed in finding what you're looking for, but it'll definitely be more probable than a random internet search.

Some other examples of Jewish records:
The birth record of Szmul Tuchmic from 1923 - it includes information about wyznanie mojzeszowe

judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmetadata?id=7270&show_nav=true

Another site in Polish with different examples of birth and death records of Polish Jews from the early 19th century -scroll down for photos. These include the word starozakonny.

google.com/amp/s/klubzaglebiowski.wordpress.com/2018/08/17/akt-urodzenia-religii-zydowskiej-starozakonni-w-bedzinskich-ksiegach-metrykalnych/amp/

Of course, things might have varied depending on the parish but to be sure you need some solid information from the state archives. Contact them. Even if you don't have enough money to do everything at once, do it step by step.

Good luck.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
3 May 2019  #23
Only "similarity" between Poland and the US in this regard would be a tendency shared between current Polish and much of the American South
and their tendency to use "Mr." + first name, "Well hello, Mr. Tom!" cf. "Dzien dobry, Panie Tomku!" in the vocative etc.
While this trend in the Southern states, deep South especially, might not be a popular as it once was, it's still not so unusual:-)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 569
7 May 2019  #24
Back on topic. There's one more thing to look for in old records (apart from wyznanie mojzeszowe).....

1) It was more about needing the translation. Also, we still remain Ethnic Jews in any case, and I showed more proof of that. We were, at least by the time that "Katarzyna" was four, Anusim and were & are B'nei Anusim.

2) Isn't Lyzko Jewish, too?
kaprys 2 | 1,870
7 May 2019  #25
I see no proof of that in the record you provided. I can't see or decipher any mention of wyznanie mojzeszowe or starozakonni.
The names are Polish, not Jewish, too.

It's high time you hired a professional who gets paid for it. And you get solid evidence of being or not being Jewish.

Honestly, I see nothing in your posts that is actually solid evidence you're Jewish. But that doesn't mean you can't convert.

@Nickidewbear
I've had another look at the first link you provided in your original post. The title of the records says :
63/167/0/1/39: Akta chrztów gminy wigierskiey od 1-go stycznia 1824 roku do dnia ostatniego grudnia 1824 roku - it's just above the scan, you can see it yourself. Akta Chrztow are not birth records but baptism records. You can check it in google translate.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
8 May 2019  #26
Yes he is, Nickidewbear:-)
OP Nickidewbear 23 | 569
8 May 2019  #27
It's high time you hired a professional who gets paid for it.

I already have solid evidence. I was pointing out more of it as an aside; and I meant Ethnic Jewish heritage by that point. Meanwhile, the point is the translation of the record overall. I'm looking for a translation.


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