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Relocating in Poland - what's the best area?


delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
7 Jul 2010 /  #31
Gdansk.Krakow,Poznan and Wroclaw have a way to go before they catch up.

No way. Fair enough, the arts and culture scene is much smaller in Poznan and Krakow, but there's still plenty of it to go round. Krakow and Wroclaw are every bit as artistic and cultural as Warsaw is, perhaps even more so.

Restaurants? I think you'll struggle to find anything that beats the Blow Up Hall restaurant here in Warsaw.

Schools? Every bit as good here.

The quality of life is actually lower in Warsaw in some respects - I mean, having to see Warszawa Centralna more than once a year would lower anyone's quality of life!
poland_  
7 Jul 2010 /  #32
The movement of artists has swung to Warsaw. It was the battle of Krakow - Warsaw for many years, now Warsaw has the upper hand. Ask any respectable artist/actor and you will get the same information.

Schools? Every bit as good here.

Warsaw, has the best private and state schools in Poland.

PKP, is getting better. Now they have introduced a rule that if your train is delayed by more than one hour you get a 40% refund on your ticket price. I am more of a city dweller than a country fella, if I travel to Krakow,Poznan it is by train, Tricity and Wroclaw by Plane.
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
7 Jul 2010 /  #33
Ask any respectable artist/actor and you will get the same information.

Still, the provicinal cities do well in their own right - thinking about Poznan alone, there's a wealth of things going on. Certainly, more than enough to keep the average person (ie, not someone obsessive about the arts) going. Even Poznan, which seems to have a small sector, still has quite the wealth of options - and Stary Browar is doing a lot to encourage it.

Warsaw, has the best private and state schools in Poland.

There's really no difference - public education is fundamentally flawed from the base up regardless of where yuo are, and private education isn't particularly better. Perhaps the schools are more expensive in Warsaw, but that's no measure of quality.

PKP, is getting better.

Sure, but suburban rail isn't too good in Warsaw, and the state of the stations leaves a lot to be desired. The inability to even get Line 2 finished says a lot - and the traffic in Warsaw is horrible, even to the point where the southern bypass is now going to be an expressway rather than motorway.

Of course, you can make much more money in Warsaw - but the cost of living there is bordering on the ridiculous. I suppose it's all a matter of opinion - at least for foreigners, Warsaw is much better set up in terms of being able to start than the other cities.
DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
8 Jul 2010 /  #34
That park was twice as beautiful one year ago.

I know, they were redoing the park, but you could still see the splendour. I will most likely go there one more time and the see it fully done! :-)

It wasn't that I wasn't expecting anything, because every polish town I've been too have had nice sqares, old-style architecture and those things. But to see a town, so far out, away from most other "hot-spots" in Poland, and still have all the things it had to offer pleasantly surprised me. I'm happy that Poland has the capacity to produce such nice cities and keep them up, which again gives me the problem, where to settle? If there was only a handful of cities/areas that really could give you a full life it would be easier, but Poland has dozens of them..."even", Bialystok... ;-)

Dariusz
poland_  
8 Jul 2010 /  #35
Perhaps the schools are more expensive in Warsaw, but that's no measure of quality.

I really don't know about Poznan, but in Warsaw if you want to put your child into a good state school there is a selection process, because the schools want to maintain the high grades. If you are not a red stripe student, it is going to be difficult to get in a good school. Regarding private schools the selection process is about if you can pay or not-but still the standards are getting better all the time. Most parents want to see their children going to a school with the IB program, so they have the option of a international university.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1593  
9 Jul 2010 /  #36
Sure, but suburban rail isn't too good in Warsaw

It's good if you want to go between the centre and the suburbs where most people live. And the towns located on the boarder to Warsaw.

If you want to travel inside the central parts, buses and trams are better.

In my opinion the public transport in Wawa works well.
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
9 Jul 2010 /  #37
but in Warsaw if you want to put your child into a good state school there is a selection process, because the schools want to maintain the high grades.

Same here. The problem is that the process is abused by the secondary schools, as part of the score is dependent on the grades from the 9th class. And of course, school directors in Poland (being fundamentally weak due to the nature of getting the job) can be influenced by parent pressure. It's just one small failing in the system, but there are many, many others.

If you are not a red stripe student, it is going to be difficult to get in a good school.

Of course, the age old tradition of a place being bought still goes on. I could tell you countless stories about schools being "full", only for some extra students to be admitted. Perhaps physical cash bribes aren't so common, but (referring back to above) - school directors are still open to pressure because they simply aren't professionally trained.

Most parents want to see their children going to a school with the IB program, so they have the option of a international university.

What stops them from going if they do the ordinary Matura? That's just snobbery, nothing more. Sure, the IB is more well known worldwide, but any university worth its salt will be happy to accept the Matura. Also - given the general quality of Polish teachers - I'd question the wisdom of attempting the IB in a state school. Don't forget (and Warsaw will be no different) - you can become a teacher of English with as little as a BA with the appropriate pedagogical training during the BA.

Regarding private schools the selection process is about if you can pay or not-but still the standards are getting better all the time.

There are still plenty of private schools out there where grades are handed out like sweets - and unfortunately, the shocking lack of care in the Polish education system means that no-one is actually auditing these grades.

Education in Poland is sadly a bit of a complete joke. There are of course exceptions, but the general quality leaves a lot to be desired.
Olaf 6 | 955  
9 Jul 2010 /  #38
Education in Poland is sadly a bit of a complete joke.

- well, there are obvious disadvantages, but depending on schools this system forms very good specialists and generally people with huge general knowledge, unlike most of other shooling systems. You Delph should know it,recieving your education in the UK (am I right?) and living in Poland. It is not a contest, but I had mine partially in Poland, and I bet I have huge advantages because of that.
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
9 Jul 2010 /  #39
There's really no difference - public education is fundamentally flawed from the base up.

I'm seriously beginning to think you haven't a clue about anything Polish - including the Polish education system. I have two kids in Polish schools, at different age levels, so I guess I have a pretty clear picture of Polish education and it's definitely not the one you're painting. I have also had some professional experience with primary schools in the UK. I prefer not to elaborate on that as it's morning and I don't want to get all upset and ruin my day.

you can become a teacher of English with as little as a BA with the appropriate pedagogical training during the BA.

You may want to check what the "requirements" are in the UK for people wishing to become teachers. While you're at it, also pls check the stages of mandatory professional development a Polish teacher MUST undergo if they wish to keep their job long-term.
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
9 Jul 2010 /  #40
but depending on schools this system forms very good specialists and generally people with huge general knowledge, unlike most of other shooling systems.

To be honest - I would say that the one thing that Poland does very well is the broad general knowledge. But then again - this is at the expense of teaching things like Business and IT. It's quite scary how people are expected to have a university education to do rather mundane jobs - look at the mess of how someone needs a title to work in a nursery for instance!

I notice that compared to British children, Polish children are dreadfully equipped to go and work straight after high school. Perhaps that's where the obsession with degrees comes from - but at the same time, this isn't good for Poland at all.

You Delph should know it,recieving your education in the UK (am I right?) and living in Poland.

Yep, I could talk all day about how the UK system suffers from the same problems as the Polish system (grade inflation, anyone?).

My gut feeling is that the Polish system desperately needs to be reformed properly. The problem is that the mess starts at the very beginning, with the requirement for nursery teachers to have degrees (why?!) and goes right through to the way that universities have far, far too many staff with ridiculous titles.

Some of the problems in the system are simply due to inflexibility - for instance, if someone is following a languages profile in high school, then they shouldn't have to do all three sciences, but rather just 2 hours a week in "general" science instead. Likewise, if they're following a scientific profile, what sense is there in forcing things like geography and history down their throats?
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
9 Jul 2010 /  #41
Likewise, if they're following a scientific profile, what sense is there in forcing things like geography and history down their throats?

Have you never noticed that that the profiles are actually called that for a reason? I studied a Humanities profile and would never have been able to survive the onslaught of maths, physics and astronomy that my Mat-Fiz fellow students received. My maths and physics classes were dumbed-down jokes in comparison, and I still struggled ;-)

On the other hand, I cannot imagine a moderately well-educated individual who would have not studied geography and history!

Polish children are dreadfully equipped to go and work straight after high school.

Maybe because it is not the objective of the system to send teenagers out to work?

with the requirement for nursery teachers to have degrees (why?!)

Because they work with one of the most vulnerable segments of society - very young childen. Their title is evidence of some hard studying and vetting done beforehand.

universities have far, far too many staff with ridiculous titles.

Now that's one ridiculous complaint!
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
9 Jul 2010 /  #42
Maybe because it is not the objective of the system to send teenagers out to work?

At the age of 19, they're more than old enough to work. That's exactly the problem - instead of people moving into the world of work at 19, they're instead going to university for 3/5 years - for what? Someone really doesn't need a degree to work as a secretary or admin assistant - yet in Poland, it's the norm. To me, the whole "must have degree to do mundane things" is almost accepting that the school system is failing children.

Because they work with one of the most vulnerable segments of society - very young childen. Their title is evidence of some hard studying and vetting done beforehand.

Do you think it's really needed? I mean, the UK system of vocational qualifications for these people seems to be far superior - for a start, they almost have to work with children from the very first step. My general complaint with the Polish system is that it's producing people with degrees with little to no experience - exactly the same problem as the UK is now developing.

Now that's one ridiculous complaint!

What, you think it makes sense for agricultural universities to have professors in Business and courses in Economics? Sure, they should be taught basic business things, but there's no need to have anyone with anything more than a Masters to teach it.

(I'm fully aware that in Poland, there would be Spanish levels of youth unemployment if it wasn't for the universities soaking up vast amounts of young people!)
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
9 Jul 2010 /  #43
basic business things

That's definitely not what a university is for. Not every Ag Uni graduate goes back to work on their farm, some might want to do research in agricultural production management or economics etc.

At the age of 19, they're more than old enough to work.

Yeah, and if they were not interested in higher education, they could have gone to basic vocational school and become hair-dressers or cooks, or gone to technikum and become mechanics or metalworkers or construction technicians or whatever, and surprise surprise - many actually do!

One thing you don't seem to understand is that to many of us, higher education does not equate gaining better qualifications to work. It is extra time you invest in yourself, to become a well-rounded individual who has had the opportunity to see what research and science is all about, read books you would not have read otherwise, and participate in heated discussions on subjects and issues you would not have otherwise thought about. No amount of hands-on experience can broaden your intellectual horizons in this manner. I know the British system is not keen on producing self-aware individuals with the capacity to think for themselves, but the Polish system still does, at least to a great extent (excluding the sector of private colleges and unis where if you pay enough, you pass, no questions asked - but the market will get rid of those graduates soon enough anyway).
enkidu 6 | 611  
9 Jul 2010 /  #44
To be honest - British education reminds me to one that was introduced by the Nazis in the occupied Poland. The Poles are allowed to learn only a subjects that may be useful for the "underhuman" worker.

Basic reading and writing, simple math, how to operate machinery. Subjects such as geography, history, languages, biology etc were forbidden.

All they want is a semi-skilled obedient worker who would work under direct supervision fi his German master-race owner.
What they didn't want is a Poles capable to understand a world around them, able to independent critical thinking. Poles who have got a knowledge and tools to do it.

The system in the UK produce such a perfect workers. What they learned in schools allows them to be clever enough to do their work and no more.

But of course this is not apply to the British master race. On Eton they are still learned history, geography, biology, even Latin. And their education is far from the stress-free approach in the state schools. On the contrary. They are learned how to be competitive and how to win.
Seanus 15 | 19668  
9 Jul 2010 /  #45
Enkidu, stop flaming! That's absolute nonsense and you know it! In fact, that was intended to cause offence to members as you should well know what a Nazi was and represented.

Where do you get your information from? You are well wide of the mark!

Stop letting your complexes shine through. They are all too visible! Poles have ready internet access now so what's your point?

'such a perfect workers'? Such perfect workers, you mean! A is one, enkidu, please try and understand this.

LOL, you don't have a clue. Elitist universities in England are generally frowned upon most for being snobbish. My education from my 2 universities, IMHO, far outstripped the nonsense that I'd learn at Cambridge and Oxford.

I don't buy into marks or labels.

Anyway, relocating in Poland? Kraków is a good start but it depends what you like :)
Harry  
9 Jul 2010 /  #46
Stop letting your complexes shine through. They are all too visible!

Don't bother, the bloke is beyond hope.
enkidu 6 | 611  
9 Jul 2010 /  #47
Stop letting your complexes shine through.

Lol - I am not the one who brags about two university courses. And I am not the one who insist that some unnamed university is beter than Oxbridge.

BTW - thank you for correcting my errors. I would gladly do the same for you if you decide to write in Polish.

I am agree that comparison to the Nazi education system in Poland wasn't necessary. But the idea is exactly the same - in the UK there are two separate education systems. The one is for the rulers. And the second one for the future workforce.

Don't bother, the bloke is beyond hope.

I think exactly the same of you. At least we have got kind of agreement, don't we?
Seanus 15 | 19668  
9 Jul 2010 /  #48
Brags? States more like. I simply think that the blend of vocational/generic and academic is better than the elitist stuff put out by Oxbridge. That's OK, it's my job :)

I agree or I am in agreement :) I'm not fully aware of what you speak of but I'll try and follow. Maybe on the other thread?

Relocating in Poland, remember?? Wrocław is a cracking place! It's my favourite city so far in Poland. It just has more options than here in Gliwice.
milky 13 | 1656  
9 Jul 2010 /  #49
I think the secondary education system in Mainland europe Poland is pretty complex compared to the one size fits all b*llsh1t we have here in Ireland and i think in Britain. I think enkidu may have a point but its a little too pointy maybe, as for

(I'm fully aware that in Poland, there would be Spanish levels of youth unemployment if it wasn't for the universities soaking up vast amounts of young people!)

I fully agree with this point.
enkidu 6 | 611  
9 Jul 2010 /  #50
I simply think that the blend of vocational/generic and academic is better than the elitist stuff put out by Oxbridge. T

Of the 54 Prime Ministers to date, 40 studied at Oxbridge, 11 did not go to university, and only 3, Earl Russell, Neville Chamberlain, and Gordon Brown, went to other universities (Edinburgh, Birmingham and Edinburgh respectively).

Yeah - you right. This elitist and outdated education is good-for-nothing. :-D
Your unnamed university is faaar better. Sure.
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
9 Jul 2010 /  #51
Can't comment for Ireland, but the Polish education system is dreadfully "one size fits all". It's even reflected in the way that children attending alternative education schools cannot do the Matura unless the school is approved by the Ministry of Education - which is somewhat contrary to the idea of "alternative".
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
9 Jul 2010 /  #52
which is somewhat contrary to the idea of "alternative".

How many different matura exams would you like there to be? The matura is a uniform, nation-wide exam and so the school would have to conform to certain specifications in order to organise it. End of story.

Polish education system is dreadfully "one size fits all"

Can you describe this in more detail please? Especially the secondary education system. We both know it's not "one size fits all".
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
9 Jul 2010 /  #53
How many different matura exams would you like there to be?

The problem is not so much with the exam (the exam should be uniform!) - but with the way that the Ministry won't allow schools to...what's the word, administer? the exam to their pupils if the school isn't accredited.

Obviously, the schools should adhere to the exam regulations, but Poland is very rigid in respect to alternative education - Summerhill would never work here, sadly :(

Do you know Magdalena, if there are any schools in Poland which allow the sitting of the Matura before the final year of high school, like is common in the UK?
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
9 Jul 2010 /  #54
if there are any schools in Poland which allow the sitting of the Matura before the final year of high school, like is common in the UK?

AFAIK no, as to be allowed to sit the matura, you have to graduate from secondary school first. One follows the other. And yes, it's not flexible, but I see no practical reason why it should be.

Also, I think it's a rather good idea that schools need to be accredited to be taken seriously. Don't English or Scottish or Welsh or NI (don't want to say British as there is probably nor British-wide standard) schools have to be as well?
delphiandomine 86 | 17823  
10 Jul 2010 /  #55
There's no such system really - the only thing is that you have to meet the standards set by OFSTED or the body that inspects independent schools. But these are flexible - and they recognise that not every school is the same. It's certainly not rigid and inflexible.

I suspect it's partially ideological - British schools have always had a degree of independence.

AFAIK no, as to be allowed to sit the matura, you have to graduate from secondary school first. One follows the other. And yes, it's not flexible, but I see no practical reason why it should be.

What if someone is far too good to be kept at school? It seems rather pointless to keep someone at the same pace as everyone else just because that's the way things are done. I'm sure if someone is capable of passing the Matura at 17 - why shouldn't they be allowed?

Having said this - the one bizzare thing to me in Poland is the way that subjects aren't streamed at all.
Magdalena 3 | 1827  
10 Jul 2010 /  #56
if someone is capable of passing the Matura at 17

They certainly can. If a school realises that someone is exceptionally gifted, they can cover the curriculum in less time, graduate sooner, and sit the matura sooner as well. No problem there. It's only a question of sequence - no matura before graduation.

that subjects aren't streamed at all.

As in "Tracking (also called streaming) is separating pupils by academic ability into groups for all subjects within a school" (Wiki)?

If yes, then of course the Polish system has it, though not within the school:

basic vocational schools
secondary technical schools
specialised lyceums
artistic lyceums
general lyceums

Streaming / tracking as described in Wiki seems like rather a terrible idea to me:

"Students are usually not offered the opportunity to take classes deemed more appropriate for another track, even if the student has a demonstrated interest and ability in the subject." (Wiki)

If this takes place within the school, then it is academic apartheid, pure and simple.

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