The 2nd Amendment (USA), the right to own guns

I have to say that Europeans' views on the Second Amendment in America is more a reflection on their own attitudes rather than a realistic assessment of the situation. The same goes for several other issues too. But I'll keep on topic here.

In terms of a political science, the social liberalism that is the EU model has equated guns to killing and death. Whenever I talk to anybody in their teens, twenties, and even early thirties from the EU (i.e., people who were educated under a system shaped by EU directives), it's like listening to a bad recording. Almost religious dogmatism. Generations, for lack of a better word, have been getting brainwashed.

What strikes me about social liberalism is how sure everybody is of their own moral superiority, how quick they are to pass judgment, and how eager they are to proselytize and impose their values on everybody else. But I digress.

The fact of the matter is that in the EU, gun ownership is a privilege. Generally for a certain class of people. Aristocrats, rich, social elite, military, members of the police and security services. It's something not available to the middle class, or if it is, it's so much trouble that it's practically not worth doing. And those of you in this middle class, such as folks on Polish Forums, have been tricked by your governments into thinking you have the moral high ground for being denied a right.

Being able to own a firearm is still a right in the US for any law-abiding citizen. And I like that.

Pozdrawiam

AHA! Another voice from the peanut gallery. Ok Miranda, Again I repeat. We the average American realize that there are problems. But you never see many Americans leaving America.

If we have problems, they are our problems.. We need no advise from transplants. ( OUCH )

You don't write crap that much but you play Devil's advocate a lot.. take the other side of the argument for the sake of it. You've got to admit Europeans do seem pretty consumed by the goings on across the pond. Any more, I kind of take it as an indirect compliment.


Yes, that's a pretty good deal. I got a Sig at a gun show for $700. They last forever and aren't plastic like a Glock is.

Canada what has that country ever done??
They depend on America for everything.


cool, Im planning on going to the range soon:)

Wahldo, spot on!! Maybe it's a difference in mentality? I like playing Devil's Advocate, I was encouraged to do so at university. I do this with my students here and they like it. I've found that those who are too opinionated are 'awkward'.

Sorry, couldn't resist.. they hate us anyway.

good one:)

HAH! And exactly what is Europe doing to protect Europe..I'll tell you.. Not a damn thing. You guy's are all talk and no action.

We have Somali pirates disrupting shipping lanes in Africa.. We are there, the Russians, Indians, and Saudis are there.. Where in the HELL is Europe?.. You guy's are phonies.OUCH

Europe is keeping itself to itself, just as you recommended. Possibly.

All show no go...

theyre so scared of the ruskies they didnt do anything when they attacked georgia

they cower like sissies

Sledz, you will also find that I'm level-headed. Please feel free to point out all the 'nonsense' that I write, there seems to be a lot of it. Pick stuff from other threads.

I agree with you that Europe isn't doing enough to protect Europe, but it still remains our matter. If you have read my other threads, you'd know that I agree that we are all talk. Ask Matthias if you remember him. We are still fighting terrorism, hehehe. Did somebody say phony? ;)

Also, as Franek himself said, and I will quote him if need be, what gave America the right to be the world police? Ask him, if he's honest then he'll admit to having said that.

Russia attacked Georgia, try the other way around. Germany sent warships to the area, hardly an act of cowardice. Clever Americans believe in diplomacy (although I know its limitations)

Hardly an ouch, sorry.

guys dont be haters.. thats not the message we want to send.

instead of fighting against it, why not come up with a way to work with it?

how about those hunting guns ( if you want to keep them) go into a security box in another facility?

like someone create a place ( safe ) which holds these items with the registers away from homes ( unless you live in a horrible neighborhood) <~even then having a gun is just like giving the bad guy the option.. because what if someone breaks into the home and takes this gun? then what? shot with your own gun?

sorry guys, I just am against them because of my experience, and believe me traumatic things make you think twice.


cool down seanus, we going to a whole new level.. and subject

I dont think Europeans will be so powerful because they dont like the changes already ..

Canada is part of North America. we just visit each others countries.. :)

Americans are aware, they just choose to be stubborn.. which isnt the solution.
someone just needs to bring a new solution to the table because the old ones arent working.

Sean youre a good guy, I guess Im not really in the best of moods today
I apologize if I offended you

Diplomacy, yes. Sorry Pat19, I wasn't angry really when I wrote that.

I'm not offended at all. I was in a bad mood the other day too and tried to burn people. It happens dude, chill.

I do actually agree with you on many things and disagree on others. Read the Kaczyński convoy thread and you will see.

I don't think it's the business of Europeans in general but this is a forum after all. We have some (albeit small) influence as many Europeans go to America which helps generate revenue in your economy. Also, many Americans are of European descent.

Which changes? I notice that some changes on PF are almost universally disliked, whether in Europe, North America, possibly Australia, Southeast Asia, perhaps even Antarctica.

Seanus, you are abosulutely right. I did make that statement. And I will say it again. Screw the rest of the world.. They have milked America enough. I also stated that we Americans should pull all of our troops from Germany, Iraq, Korea, and any other place that they are. Bring them home to protect our borders, keeping out free loaders.

America is self sufficient.. We have enough natural resources, we are the worlds bread basket. Oh yes, we have our share of pretty girls.

I didn't dispute that the world had milked America either, it's true. Now you are speaking sense, protect your own borders, this I agree with.

I really failed to see how fighting abroad, under dubious premises, helps the safety of mainland Americans.

However, it's partly self-induced. The Land of Opportunity, why wouldn't people flock their in their droves? The idea of the self-made man found pride of place in America but reality is starting to bite for many standard Americans.

well poland being in the EU and all the immigration to the UK for instance..

how many threads have we discussed and fought in over the I hate polish people.

I think Europe can be like us, its just going to take a long time.. we were built on the American dream.. to be United, People came here for this reason. Europe isnt a new land.. so its going to take some time for the word UNITY to sink in.. thats all.

Here is an example of social liberalism that I was referring to in my post. I would certainly hope that Poles would be equally as stubborn about maintaining their constitutional rights, and not being led to believe that their constitution somehow isn't working and needs a new solution. Unfortunately, that's exactly what the EU has been doing. There isn't much left of the substance of the Constitution of the Third of May anymore, just a holiday to celebrate it.

United but embracing diversity, nice ideal. There is diversity in America, as can be seen through the lack of uniformity in gun laws across the states and also capital punishment. Americans, however, will feel much more American than Europeans feel European. To me, I'm European by default. I'm Scottish, I was brought up and raised there, I love our culture and traditions.

So, one up for the Americans that they can better inculcate a feeling of identity.

Given Europe's intellectual capital it has the potential to be very powerful again but it depends on them getting along, which historically they haven't done. It would also, in my opinion, mean they work a lot harder, spend more money in their region, take less time off. Nose to the grindstone.

Hot Ziggadity, cooler heads are now prevaling. Everything is beautiful in its own way. It is great to know that we can disagree and still remain friends.

I say that Patrycia should be named Diplomat of the year..Chill out pat.. This is man talk..As you see there is no harm done.

GRRR

Switzerland has plenty of guns and gun laws very different to those in most European countries. It also has a very low rate of gun crime. The Swiss are European, but Switzerland is not an EU member. Current attitudes to guns across Europe are not, however, coincidental with EU membership.

Better a Pat than an expat, right? LOL

Good point, Americans tend to lump your ideals together.

Variety is the spice of life!

thats not what I meant by it isnt working, I never said they had to take away the right to bear arms.. but create a place for them.. no one will stop hunting, or whatever, I do believe if someone is going to have them, there should be a good reason to..

someone who is in the law enforcement, but that doesnt work always either,
I am merely suggesting a new way to protect children from getting hurt, does this also get included in the constitution?? to save our children from irresponsible adults who like to be stubborn for whatever reasons and use the constitution to justify having a gun that just shot their child?

im off to work,, but I expect a good answer.. because I am all for children being alive.. constitution or not.. we all have a right to life.. put that in the constitution!!

The state cannot under any circumstances protect every man, woman, and child from themselves. Nor should it. Such a state would be a tyranny.

The fact of the matter is that out of all gun-related deaths in the US last year, less than 3% were accidental deaths as per your example, and most of these in turn affected adults. The stereotypical image of the little boy sneaking into Dad's closet to play with a loaded gun and then shooting himself (or a friend) is exaggeration and disinformation paid for by special interest groups. Sure it happens, and is highly publicized when it does, but not very often relative to a nation of 300 million people. Moreover, accidental deaths have dramatically decreased over previous years; education has helped, and gun manufacturers now provide trigger locks free of charge. Personal responsibility.

In terms of accidental deaths for children, they are 10 times more likely to drown in a swimming pool. Should the government mandate 7x24 life guards on private swimming pools too, to make up for irresponsible parents not watching their kids? Or perhaps just outlaw them altogether, and force children to only go to public basins? And declare rivers, lakes, and ocean off-limits?

I agree, it boils down to the responsibility of the parents. The ineptitude of the few shouldn't jeopardise the democracy of the many. However, governments prove this to be wrong time and again, oops.

dude its not just little boys, its teens, drinking teens, depressed teens, little boys, little girls even, its any child..


if someone owns a gun, he goes out and gets drunk, decides to load up the gun and go find the guy who stole his wife.. hmmmmmm whos responsibility is it then to protect the guy who is now having at his wife?

nor is it the state which should allow a man to purchase a gun to rape/kill a woman who was out shopping and happen to become a victim?

or the child who was in the gunfire of gang war which was in his own neighborhood..

no, the state shouldnt have to try and protect anyone should it, not even if we pay them to be there..

I realize some things are unforseeable.. but again, I still say, it can be prevented by simple steps.. and I cant watch someone elses child away from my home .. as some of the parents whos child was the victim of the gun.

but I do believe they are making or already made a law in which holds the parent who owned the gun responsible..