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British news: The Poles might be leaving but the prejudice remains


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Sep 2009 /  #31
Increasing sense of national pride? Scotland has always had a sense of pride, szkotja2007. Increasing national pride doesn't always translate to the need to become independent. The Poles, for example, have pride in abundance but they joined the EU rather than remaining an autonomous and highly sovereign nation.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
23 Sep 2009 /  #32
Poland isn't autonomous or soverign within the EU ? Hmmm........
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Sep 2009 /  #33
They are part of a supranational entity, szkotja2007. Therefore, it doesn't have full autonomy in a political sense as it doesn't self-govern in all areas. Read Costa Vs ENEL 1964 and the notion of direct effect. I could speak about this notion for a long time if you want.

As for national sovereignty, it has been and is being diluted across the board. Brother, please tell me you are joking. I could give you multiple examples of the loss of sovereignty. It is being whittled away rapidly.

thirdworldtraveler.com/United_Nations/Chronkite_UN.html
this is for starters.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
23 Sep 2009 /  #34
Poland isn't autonomous or soverign within the EU ? Hmmm........

They are now, Lisbon will change that though.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Sep 2009 /  #35
You cannot be fully autonomous if you have legal measures which have direct application in (the form of) EU Regulations.
southern 75 | 7,096  
23 Sep 2009 /  #36
EU has feked us big time.Basically it is an organization of higher classes and middle class networking which secure their stability by keeping the others in constant mobility.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
23 Sep 2009 /  #37
It's definitely disintegrating. Did you know that in the mid-80's, Scottish TV would play God Save The Queen at the end of the night? Can't see that happening nowadays...

They didnt play in England! Bast*rds! lol - maybe it was just to wind the Scots up :D

If you Scots want your independence...you can have it...lets see how long you last, let us not forget, you are an insignificant little upper part of the Island same as those Welsh tossers who think they can make it on their own....I'll parade my ar$e up market steet when they get total financial independence! It'll be straddling me knees by that time!

The only people that need freeing from any ties to this Island are Ireland!

Hell, it'll be people from Newcastle next coz they got a dodgy accent (Mr HB you know Im having a laugh now)
delphiandomine 85 | 18,270  
23 Sep 2009 /  #38
They are now, Lisbon will change that though.

Nonsense. I think it's an accepted principle that Member States have the right to revoke the act establishing their membership of the EU - indeed, Greenland is a good example of a territory that did just that.

As far as I remeber, Lisbon includes (for the first time) details of how a Member State can leave the EU.

Anyway, Lisbon discussion is irrelevant - the Czech Klaus seems to be hell bent on refusing to sign Lisbon into Czech law and has Kaczynski on his side. If those two refuse the ratification of Lisbon until after the next UK election, then the possibility of a refendum on Lisbon in the UK will kill it dead.

And maybe this time, Irish voters will teach their government a lesson and reject the treaty for a second time.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Sep 2009 /  #39
Shelley, what is your definition of significant? If a solid industrial base is insignificant then we are guilty as charged.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
23 Sep 2009 /  #40
I think it's an accepted principle that Member States have the right to revoke the act establishing their membership of the EU

Sovereignty = being able to do what you need to do, when you need to do it. Cmon wise owl, tell us LIEsbon mantains individual member states national sovereignty. As bugs bunny said, I am all ears.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Sep 2009 /  #41
'The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.'

RN, the EU is not foreign interference? Who are you trying to kid? They encroach on many aspects of life. They are bureaucrats who even tried to regulate the length of Polish pickles/gherkins. Their tentacles reach into all manner of places. Go and do your research on EU Regulations, Directives and even Decisions which are binding. I am an EU Law major/master by title, I know my stuff.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
24 Sep 2009 /  #42
Where did I say that they were not, Seanus? On the wodka? ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Sep 2009 /  #43
Your definition of sovereignty is awry and wide of the mark. I haven't drunk vodka for a long time and I've only had 2 beers in the last 2 weeks, neither of which were drunk tonight.

Maybe quote some provisions of the Lisbon Treaty to present your case!? ;)
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
24 Sep 2009 /  #44
Seanus, with respect, I really really do not want to get into LIEsbon. I am off to Prague on Friday morning to get away from this whole fiasco. Lisbon, Lisbon, Lisbon, every where I look, Lisbon.

Anyways, the Lisbon treaty will enshrine EU law as superior to Irish law nothing will be able to challenge EU law, thus, making it worth less than the paper its written on.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Sep 2009 /  #45
OK, I respect that. I just feel that the minor states will be ever more trampled on and brought into line with the vision of the ruling elite. They will have to be ever more congruent and complicit. Even Poland saw a dilution in its power, a fact which prompted Lech Wałęsa to go to Ireland.

spectrezine.org/europe/Coughlan.htm here's a good paper for you. I could challenge some of its validity but it contains quite a few truisms.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
24 Sep 2009 /  #46
LIEsbon will pass, Seanus. What the EUnuchs want, the EUnuchs get. They will stuff the ballot box if need be. I canvassed for a NO vote the first time around, couldnt be arsed this time around. I will be encouraging others to vote No. If it gets rejected, party in my gaff, tequila all around, I will be going on a mad one, the TV will be lobbed out the window.

Lech was here already. Blink and you would have missed it. He told everybody he was for tax harmonisation, that he supported Lisbon, said some nice things about Libertas, went on a stroll with Enda Kenny around Dublin and away he went. Very unusual.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
24 Sep 2009 /  #47
Read Costa Vs ENEL 1964 and the notion of direct effect.

I'll take your word for it.

I could speak about this notion for a long time if you want.

No, honestly ;-)

loss of sovereignty

Ok, so I suppose there are varying degrees. It would appear that in this context we are talking about willful loss of sovereignty in some areas for the greater good of your country.

you are an insignificant little upper part of the Island

So why are all the London based parties objecting to a referendum.

I'll parade my ar$e up market steet when they get total financial independence!

The rest of the UK will need to rent its ar$e whenn Scotland gets total financial independence - to help pay for the loss in revenue !

Hell, it'll be people from Newcastle next

Geordies are welcome to join anytime. Newcastle could be a tax free haven - a sort of Monte Carlo.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Sep 2009 /  #48
However, szkotja2007, look above. You will see that national sovereignty is 'absolute'. We know that there are areas that the EU doesn't regulate which gives the character of the remnants of sovereignty. Don't be fooled!

Hmm...I think I should take October off the forum. I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
24 Sep 2009 /  #49
Don't worry. Some people can get in to the legislation and stuff whereas for others ( like myself ) reading papers is a nightmare.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Sep 2009 /  #50
I really don't take much of an active interest in such things these days so my knowledge is likely rusty. I meant that, although I post a lot here, I'm not really overly communicative in real life. I do my job as a teacher but I'm more of a facilitator now. I value my alone time more and more.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,270  
24 Sep 2009 /  #51
tell us LIEsbon mantains individual member states national sovereignty.

By that definition, you'd have to leave absolutely every single international agreement - and be even more isolated than North Korea.

My definition is simple - can the Irish (or any government) revoke the acts of Parliament which establish their membership of the EU? Yes. Can the EU stop them? No. Therefore, ultimate power still lies with the Member States.

Compare this to the States of the USA - which clearly cannot leave the Union. Lisbon will even include an exit clause for the first time!

The fact that you can't be bothered to canvass for a No vote says a lot about you, though.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
24 Sep 2009 /  #52
The EUnuchs will eventually get their way, no matter how we vote. As for the debate on Lisbon, neither side are debating the treaty, but making extraordinary claims. To be blunt, it is a complete fiasco. At this stage, it is a joke. After next weekend, I never want to hear the word Lisbon again.

can the Irish (or any government) revoke the acts of Parliament which establish their membership of the EU?

The Irish government do not want to upset the scum in Brussels. Fianna Fail, the mass immigration party, are finished. They have a 17% approval rating, their lowest ever. They know which side their bread is buttered. They are sucking up to the scum in the vain hope they get jobs in Brussels, as the majority of them will be resigned to the scrap heap, come the next general election.

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