14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion!

I haven't seen any pro-choicer standing outside the GPO here in Dubs trying to force their opinion thru your throat. Yet I have seen pro-lifers every bloody Saturday in front of it trying to do so by showing pictures of pasta sauce and other stuff like that. The pro-choicers leave that up to the woman herself and her sense of responsibility. What kind of movement wants to save a "life", which isn't even a life at that time, and ruin another life in order to save that handfull of cells, which it basically is? And besides, the Christian Church did NOTHING when they came for the Jews. The Pope refused to condemn the proscecution of Jews in order not to offend the German Catholics. Instead, he prayed for a swift victory of the Nazis over the Commies. Tell me, if you're so well educated, why was that if religion preaches love and understanding and WANTS TO SAVE HUMAN LIFE?


Yet those same lifers promote the right to bear arms and shoot anybody who breaks into their home, go to shooting ranges to practice their skills. Surely you won't mind anybody breaking into your house and certainly not use your gun when he's threatening you, as you "value precious life"?


Hahaha, that made me laugh. So you're basically saying that a woman who gets raped owes it to herself? Maybe she shouldn't have worn that short skirt as it might provoke that sexually frustrated psycho standing on the corner? Yes, it's their body, they do with as they please. As long as it doesn't propose a danger to herself or others, that is fully ok. And abortion isn't endangering anybody, so that's ok.


The eggcell is part of the woman's body, the womb is part of her body. She decides what to do with it. Not you. Not anybody else.


Indeed you have put nothing but obsolete nonsense in here.


Whoah, that's quite some heavy language for somebody who claims to be so forgiving and valuing human life and so on. But, halleluyah! Have a look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_Theory

And don't come up with that bullcrap that it's just a theory, so far I have seen lots more practical evidence of it than of the theory you're such an adept of... And about the one who created me, well, I respect my mother and my father as they are the ones who created me. So again, your theory grows a little weaker.


I got another impression.

>^..^<

M-G (a man who values life calls himself "Gunslinger"? How contradicting)

This 14 year old was not raped,the whole premise was based on a lie,but those will argue that she was under the age of consent so she must of been raped,even if the boy could have been younger,but let us see what happens when we turn it round,a boy 14 is raped by a Women say 24,she become's pregnant,the boy has no say in the matter,her body ,her choice,she then take's the boy to court for money for the baby.All the right's no responsibility.

ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm

Like I said. Cowards and weaklings are everywhere, none of that changes the principles of Christianity. The "church" in America is mostly silent and afraid to speak against abortion. And for your information, genius-boy, Hitler's extermination plan was TOP SECRET EVEN AMONG THE UPPER ECHELON SS! Why? Because he knew people would oppose it, and it would destroy German morale.

The Japanese in America were rounded up like animals in much the same way here, only difference is we didn't SECRETLY kill them. Maybe because we had Christian leaders...

And so what if the pope prayed for swift victory over Soviet Russia? Everyone everywhere of all races and religions had better chances of survival under Nazi Germany. Everyone except the Jew, the Gypsy, etc. and as stated, the Church was not aware of the extermination.


You're such a frail little man. Right to keep and bear arms is the people's assurance against tyrannical government. Why not read up on it? Because you don't care and you're a weakling and unable to understand such things as taking a stand against oppression. Ever hear of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Imagine if all the Jews in Europe would have been armed as Americans are. The only holocaust would have been the piles of dead Gestapo in the doorways. Yes we own weapons, whole stockpiles of privately owned arms. But to your fearful mind, that must make us violent, right? Don't make me start pulling out per capita murder statistics for US vs UK.

I value life, and if someone threatens my life or the life of any innocent person, that person is going to be attacked. I wouldn't "shoot to kill" I'd just shoot, and if it happens that the violent attacker is killed, then so be it. Perhaps it will put the fear of God in future wannabe thieves and murderers. Here's a news story recently, from 5 minutes from my home: thepittsburghchannel.com/news/21112300/detail.html


Haha! Funny man you are. I'm talking about "choicers" not rape victims. Isn't it "funny' that 75-85% of rape victims who become pregnant by the rape, choose LIFE?

Look into it genius, abortion is dangerous to the woman's LIFE, as well as her reproductive future, and it is deadly to the child inside her. That is the discussion here. Get with the program.


I didn't ASK you about the EGG, I didn't ask you about the WOMB! I asked you WHAT PART OF THE WOMAN'S BODY IS THE FETUS! ???

I knew you wouldn't answer this one, you slimy piece of filth.


Wrong. You outright LIED and said I was drabbling on about a vengeful God. I never did. So it is you who are full of nonsense.


I have no patience for vermin like you. I am set against people like you, who encourage the decay of our culture from within, promote murder of children still inside their mothers. Don't expect nice language from me, you are scum. Like I said, people like you I lump in with all the other pedophiles, rapists, and murderers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_Theory


You mother and father had sex, and their sperm and egg unites to make you. But who created the sperm? And the egg? Who designed all the sexual organs? Do you have any idea how intricate this stuff really is? How about I pull up next to your house in a brand new BMW, and say "Hey, look at this completely random product of evolution, it was created by unintelligent design and randomly assembled itself from evolving matter."

And THAT's how stupid YOU look. No, more stupid actually. The human body is light years more advanced than a motor vehicle, which takes thousands of INTELLIGENT designers, engineers, and assemblers to complete.

It's just a theory, weak boy, Darwin himself didn't subscribe to it. And a sh*tty one at that. "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." - Charles Darwin

Mmhmm....

2. Using derogatory language is strictly prohibited (unless necessary to explain the language's nuances). Posters who use derogatory language towards other users will be banned.

"you slimy piece of filth" is an example

Who verified that study by that woman? I gather that it was the only one of its kind. That sounds like a sweep under the carpet job to the rest of them. Where's my guarantee that the results weren't tampered with? Where's my guarantee that they weren't paid off to serve an agenda?

You don't want to treat it as a physical, social or physiological issue at all. Just a Christian one. Well, are you aware of the 2007 WHO study? This has the potential to drag us into analogous debates involving decriminilisation, i.e drugs. They concluded that abortions are just as likely to occur in countries outlawing abortion than to occur in those where it is freely available. The stark and bleak reality of non-medical procedures is a damn sight worse than doing it with a professional hand.

How about the viability threshold being 23 weeks, coinciding with sentience? We see neocortical development then and not before. It is generally understood that personhood starts then.

In America, before abortion was legal, thousands died and many were disformed through the fact that about 800,000 abortions per year were sought illegally.

Ok, according to your study, women want to keep their child of rape and that's their choice. However, how about the kid you so dearly cherish? She would not really see the kid as 'her kid' and thus be unwanted. The kid itself will be ridiculed and feel dreadful, maybe even be driven to suicide.

It violates her privacy, having a child born of rape. Carrying it for all that time, the pain of bearing and the cost of raising. They all hinder her.

Just to point out that that is what he said but if you read what he wrote after that, you'd know he was leading up to his case for evolution.

I know this because this passage, completely taken out of context, is often used by creationists who are too silly or at least believe the people they are talking to, too silly to read the full text.

And now for the rest of the text, enjoy.

Gunslinger, I have one question that I really want to ask you. If there's any one, it's this one.

1) If abortion was made illegal, and the tide of Roe Vs Wade is slowly turning, what punishment should be administered to women who have illegal abortions?

You have to address this social issue as many women have been receiving illegal abortions in some countries for a very long time.

Also, law as social consensus is important. You seem to take a huge moral objection based on your assertion of personhood. You are up against the Jewish lobby too. The first breath is the key criteria according to the Talmud. They don't regard a foetus as a person. Therefore, they don't see it as murder to abort.

Viability and neocortex development seem to be more logical starting points as personhood.

However, the duty of protection rests on us to guide it through to that stage. However, don't you think that if a woman could steer away from a miscarriage when a zygote that she would?

If there is no implantation yet, is it a baby or a potential human as John Kerry said?

The Pope was well informed about the exterminations yet he refused to say anything.


You just disqualified yourself as credible discussion partner. I will no longer look into your ridiculously retarded ideas and reverse logic. One thing: THERE IS NO GOD. GOD IS A CREATION OF MAN HIMSELF TO BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE COULDN'T EXPLAIN. GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Oh man, you must feel really stupid to find yourself believing in something that never existed. But just keep confusing yourself and come with silly quotes of an old book that has no relevance in today's society. Just like you. You're cannonfodder, Gunslinger, nothing more than that. First to go to the front and, if you survive, last to return from the front. It's called "natural selection" and something tells me you're not going to make it.

>^..^<

M-G (thinks Gunslinger is a demented soul, maybe some professional help could sort out his issues)

Was Hitler ever excommunicated? Here's a scoop, even Mussolini wanted to have him excommunicated before the war.

Oh, he wasn't a practising Catholic. Well, whoopdeedoo, 75% of 95% Roman Catholic Poland aren't either. So, roughly 1 in 4 don't practise. Interview those and they'll likely tell you that they still have kept their faith (though unpractising). The Centre for Public Opinion Research (2005 study) put it at 97% as Catholic and 58% practising thereof. I've heard many Poles say they have lost interest after the death of JPII. They are no fan of Ratzinger. So, it could be nearer 1 in 2 but let's compromise on 1 in 3. Let's say 66% (2/3) are practising. About 12.8 million non-practising souls. Any comment, Gunslinger? Are they Godless too?

christian.org.uk/news/polish-women-favour-britain-for-abortions
10,000 Polish women got abortions in the UK in 2008. 97% are Catholic with a sound knowledge of the RCC's position on the sanctity of life and the Catechisms. It doesn't matter if they are practising or not, i.e attending church, it matters that they KNOW the implications of being a Catholic and they do. They know full well the position on abortion and that's why they go abroad to get one. Both the woman and the doctor make that decision to abort the baby so why should she be allowed to call herself a Catholic when the dogma and position on it says she can't? There are other reports to back this up should you wish to see them. Hitler was baptised and if you underplay that, you are a fool. Time to move on to what he did and not his label, right?

M-G, to be fair, you can't say that God doesn't exist so emphatically. In fact, that's a very dangerous statement, my friend. The whole point is faith as we just don't know. You can't negate that.

Also, although I don't agree that the Bible should be at the forefront of ANY non-theological or non-religious issue, to say that it has no relevance is wrong. It has relevance relative to the tide of Christianity in that area.

Let's tie this in to the thread. Some say the Bible doesn't speak of abortion at all. Such people haven't read the Bible in its entirety as there are some scant references. Exodus 21: 22-25 or Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 or 4:3 of the same chapter.

rsrevision.com/Alevel/ethics/abortion/christianityandabortion.pdf, contained herein is my position. Look at what the Church of England has to say. Like me, they are morally against abortion but see rape as an exculpating factor.

'"We affirm that every human life, created in the divine image, is unique... We therefore believe that
abortion is an evil... and that abortion on demand would be a very great evil. But we also believe that
to withdraw compassion is evil, and in circumstances of extreme distress or need, a very great evil...
In an imperfect world the 'right‛ choice is sometimes the lesser of two evils."' Church of England 1988

I've just discovered the above thread and it is one of the best I have read. I talked about "necessary evils" above but Gunslinger hasn't addressed it yet. If Jesus granted ultimate forgiveness then so can we as Christians. He even admitted that he would forgive his wife so does he or does he not advocate the administering of the murder penalty for women who have repented (separate contract with God)? He has called abortion murder so why not apply the definition to those cases and prosecute them? Is he prepared to do this? Well, are ye, punk? ;) ;) ;) (sorry, I like Dirty Harry).

Gunslinger, please address posts 278, 280 and 282

Hm, I agree it's a bold statement, however, bold ppl ask for bold statements :) But if you look at it in a more scientific way: the pre-Christians had certain gods. Gods have been around for as long as ppl needed to explain things they didn't understand. And what is easier to explain it by being created or coming forth of the mood of something that's invisible? As for those primitive pagans, neanderthalers and the like: you see a certain evolution in religion: CaveMen worshipped fire either as being a god itself or the action of some natural god, as they could not explain where this came from. After that you get gods for thunder and lightning, woods, trees, wind, sunshine and on and on and on. Well at least the sun is highly visible so it makes sense to think that it would be a god. After that you got the Babylonian gods, the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, the Roman gods. Then the Monotheistic religions come on stage. They attribute everything they see to one grumpy god that's somewere up in the skies and created us to be an image of himself. Those ancient Christians, Jews and Muslims couldn't explain things either, but instead of blaming a patitude of gods for seperate things, they just attributed it to just one god. It's actually still a mystery why ppl started to believe in just one god, but an acceptable explanation would be that those ppl wanted to rebel against this forest of gods that they found everywhere they came. And so the Jews created monotheism as rebellion against polytheism, given that this theory is correct, but it's not 100% clear as to why ppl started to worship one god instead of the usual suspects. After the Jews came the Christians which copied most of their religion from Judaism and after them came the newest club: the Muslims. Christianity was the most "successful" as it was forced upon many of pagan tribes throughout Europe by Irish priests.

My questions would be: 1) Why is the god of the Christians real and why are those other gods not real? 2) Science has unmasked multiple gods, yet there are still things that science cannot explain yet. It's safe to assume that sooner or later all these things that are yet attributed to some god, hanging in the sky, will be explained without a shadow of a doubt? 3) in other words: if the god of thunder can be unmasked by science, so can this god? 4) and if there is a god, who tells me that it's the Christian god that is truly the only god and not the Jewish god or the Muslim god?

Aren't religious freaks not simply running after some very obsolete ideas of a village-idiot of 2000 years agon? Do ppl need religion to be certain of their existance? Are they not strong enough to live life without some deity? Who has the patent on gods?

Think about it, Seanus, it all makes sense. I do respect ppl who chose to believe. Except Gunslinger. I don't like Gunslinger.

>^..^<

M-G (We can invent any god we want, btw: I have, for example, a god for the dishwasher: If the dishwasher doesn't work correctly, the god of the dishwasher is angry at me for eating too much and I will receive punishment in the form of manually doing the dishes - that'll teach me)

Well, for all your arguments there are counterarguments but I'm not going to delve into them as religious discussions should be kept to a minimum on this forum. They can be used to show support for the abortion argument but as sparingly as possible. Such matters can be used as an interest group in the formation of laws regulating abortion. I take the middle position. Gunslinger thinks they have the whole floor whereas you think they have no relevance. Christians can undoubtedly call on the Bible as it has made an indelible impression on our culture. However, it is for the law makers to decide to what extent the Bible can shape modern 21st century laws. It is not the law of the land and actually says very little on abortion. Reading between the lines, it gives mixed messages. Besides, the words contained therein were said by different men like you or I.

Gunslinger's achilles heel is that he cannot point to a definitive proclamation of God which expressly forbades abortion per se. He'd have a fixed position then.

What counter arguments would there be for a statement that we condemn natural gods of primitives as being fake and the Christian god as real? We have unmasked many of them primitive gods with the help of science - who says we're not gonna unmask the Christian god or the Jewish god or the Muslim god?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Because the scientists have been paid off ;0 ;0 ;)

Please stick to the abortion points, M-G. If you want a fuller discussion of God, please PM me and I'll get back to you when I can. I have to shoot off to work soon.

So, M-G. Personhood begins at conception, true of false?

Personhood consist of character building, primary senses and so on. A handfull of cells of a few weeks old has none of that. So I would say, False.

>^..^<

M-G (we will talk about deities later on)

I agree that the person who SLEPT with her should definately (if necessary by law) take the responsibility of the child.

But there shouldnt be an abortion if the girl was not FORCED WITH VIOLENCE.

You say you are a teacher.... an instructor.... do you take exams?....If a student does bad, do you return him/her the exam paper and give then another chance in critical exams? An exam is an exam...and this world is a great Examination Hall.

Whether you are 15 or 150 years old...there are mistakes you suffer in life...and there are blunders your must carry all life.... these blunders are extended when immorality is laid with another layer of immorality. Abortion will be just the thing following that example...

Best should be that the girl is give support by our Government (which I really ... dunno what to say.... I am not political) ... the child is accepted and loved in the society.... the man is given his share of responsibilities.... and she can be respected. BUT SHE WILL ALSO BE A LESSON....to anyone planning a HOT SEX (in the illegitimate way).

LIFE begins at the very first point of CONCEPTION. That is the point where the soul unites with the body, and a life comes into existance. To kill a life is a crime. Criminals are those who keep committing this crime. Criminals are they...

Jesus Christ :)))

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

What about threat of violence, perceived or implied?


Doesn't this conflict with the first quote? No abortion unless it is forced with violence, but it is not ok to perform abortions.

Does atheist Jews in Netherlands often use this expression? Anyway, this is unusual to laugh from own scientific ignorance. You have an interesting personality. :)

It's a bit like hardware and software. The hardware is the body/brain (the physical component) and the software is the genetic program (DNA from conception). However, what pro-lifers fail to acknowledge is that a program needs to be properly activated. You could have the perfect program but if your hardware is in any way underdeveloped, this could directly affect the software. This is where sentience comes in. The soul has been described as 'the totality of sentience' by Hegel. If you get a super computer to work with intelligent computer programs (see Feingenbaum, a researcher) then you have an ideal match. However, sentience (23 weeks), as the intelligent and aware program, is not matched by the corresponding brain activity of the body (25 weeks). That comes later. Neocortical development is only really a factor come 25 weeks. The program lies dormant for all that time, finding sentience after 23 weeks and then waits further in the hope that brain activity takes its natural and healthy course (2 weeks later).

Why, because I called you names? Plenty more where that came from, and all true!

Nice cop-out. But I'll ask the question AGAIN, just to FURTHER demonstrate to anyone reading this that you REFUSE to answer the question based on the fact that it is devastating to your frail NON-logical "argument". I didn't ASK you about the EGG, I didn't ask you about the WOMB! I asked you WHAT PART OF THE WOMAN'S BODY IS THE FETUS! ???

Answer it.


Says the simpering little effeminate with no back-bone. It's only because real men from other countries took a stand and went to battle against oppression and tyranny, that YOUR parents or grandparents were not killed with the millions of Jews slain in the Nazi holocaust. And there you sit, dishonoring every single one of them. You yourself are PROOF that natural selection is a lie. In a world of "survival of the fittest", how is a frail, cowardly little swine like yourself, afforded the right to live past a few days?

But, like I said, your opinion goes in the trash with all the other pedophiles, rapists, and murderers. Don't care.

Oh, and here's a quote from your hero:

I feel most deeply that this whole question of Creation is too profound for human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton! Let each man hope and believe what he can. - Charles Darwin

Isn't Science wonderful? There is a new DVD out called The Case for a Creator. But you probably won't look into it, because you are content living in ignorance and rebellion.

Just know this; one day you will die. When you die, your spirit will be taken to the Judgement Seat of Jesus Christ, and you will stand before the Mighty One of Israel, whom you have scorned. As the worm you are, you will cower in His awesome presence. An angel will open the Book of Life, and the LORD will ask "Is his name found in the Book of Life?" the angel will answer "No, my Lord, his name does not appear." then you will be sent to the Lake of Fire, where you will forever remain in torment, along with all the unrepentant, the rebellious, and the devil and his angels.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I know the Truth, and you have believed a lie. It's quite a gamble you're making, and the house always wins...

It not too late to repent and turn to Jesus even now,...not too late, until that last breath,...can you feel it,...slipping away?

Gunslinger44

Spare me your religious nonsense. And don't you call my grandparent's survival an act of God. If there was a god, and he was so full of love, he would never have let WW2 happen and certainly not have allowed the diverse Holocausts that took place. There is proof for evolution, there is no proof for the creationist's theory. Stop being such a delusional freak and what's more: stop forcing your obsolete views upon ppl who don't wanna learn them. And besides, you didn't address any of the points mentioned - instead, you use religious bombast which impresses no-one. Answer the many questions ppl have asked you fully and completely if you want ppl to start taking you seriously.


No point in discussing with ignorant religionists. They are perhaps the most laughable ppl in the world, because they live their life to some story that was written 1700 years ago. Hahaha! How silly can you be? You know what? You should ask your priests to start preaching from "The Collected Fairy Tales" by the brothers Grimm. Maybe, if he keeps it up long enough, you will believe in that too.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

because, dear Mare, Jesus Christ is the only God (or son of, he sure seems like God) that actually shows up when you need him. when people say he's real they do literally mean it.

you can pray to the rest every minute of the day for the rest of your life and you will only end up with a sore tongue. well, you might attract a few demons so that may not be entirely true.

Jesus is real have no doubt. saved my behind a few times. more.

we got angels around here too. I have a photo of one, just showed up when I downloaded some pics friom my camera.. I didn't see it when i shot the pic.. kind of blurry but you can see him in there. like a big 16 foot tall purply gold fuzzy guy.

That one I think is the one that turned my car away from that semi.. missed it by a half inch.


not as silly as your mother on the day she conceived you.

Typical Gunslinger, pick the argument as polar opposite to his as possible and lay into it. I've discovered new lines in 278, 280, 282 and 292 that will put him to the sword.

How, GS, do you get round the fact that a religious body in the Church of England rightly morally condemns standard abortions (although I wouldn't adopt this is an absolute cut+dry position but a nice general one) but recognises 3 exceptions? (one being rape)

I need write no more. There is plenty to address in the 4 posts I outlined above.

Show us.

What did he do? Come over in HG Well's Time machine and struck all the evil-doers with a thunderbolt? :)

Jesus may have been real as a person, but one should think of him as a village idiot. That's how ppl saw him at the time. Unfortunately there were muslim-like fanatics after he died that tried to impose his thoughts upon everybody else. And these muslim-like fanatics spawned bitter and old frustrated Greek men in Alexandria who thought it was wise to collect all that was ever written about the topic and put it all in a book, mainly copied from the Jewish faith, which was the original Monotheistic religion. It's all based on an idea, nothing else. If you come with conclusive proof I will change my mind, but for now god to me is, just like all the other gods out there, a human creation in an attempt to explain what man cannot explain himself at the moment.

>^..^<

M-G (goes deeper into this later on, right now too busy to do anything else)

Mmm, not so sure cheehaw. Heard plenty of people claim God or Jesus has helped them but I've never seen the evidence. I can understand how at a difficult time your faith in a god and words from a holy book can give you strength, courage and support; but to say that God or Jesus has physically done something to help you is simply twisting an interpretation of the way something occurred to try and prove the existence of a god. When I hear people say 'Oh I prayed to God and this happened and it saved me from harm..' I always wonder why God didn't bother to save the millions of people who must have been praying to their last breath to be saved as they starved in concentration camps, choked in the gas chambers, shook with fear as they were lined up to be shot. Tell me, why was your 'behind' considered by God to be worth saving and their behinds weren't?


Powerful words; some might say beautiful in a strange way. But it doesn't alter the fact that so often when believers in God are asked to show some logical, proveable evidence for their belief, or at least something that can withstand a degree of questioning, they quote from the very book which non-believers are asking them to prove is the true word of a god.

The way I see it, if anyone who is going to use the god/religion argument to oppose abortion, they need to show some evidence of the validity of their sources, i.e God and the Bible or whatever holy sources their beliefs are based upon. This isn't just an anti-Christian stance I'm taking but I would include any other faith if their believers were to use their religious beliefs as an argument against abortion. You see, the problem with using the god/religion 'facts' as the basis for your argument is that you need to convert the non-believer to your faith before you can actually use this argument, which probably isn't going to happen as such a person will always require some rationality when all you can offer is irrationality.

Well said, rich. I have faith but I don't let it get in the way of my rationality. The two are not mutually exclusive. Footballers, for example, who cross themselves on the football pitch and look upwards have inbuilt faith but what does that have to do with abortion? I do the same but can see that cases such as rape or profound distress are exculpating factors. Absolute positions are seldom rational unless the logic is highly compelling.

Not in the least. I didn't get into this for the "fun" of it (though it can be satisfying making murder-supporters look the fools that they are) I address points as they surface, though most of them are manure, straight from the horse's ass.

I have a f*cking life and a job to do, you're the one who keeps inviting me back to your thrice-resurrected, dead and rotting "arguments".


Bullsh*t. If you have, you would have told which ones. You're talking a big talk to make it seem as though your argument can hold a pint of water. It never has, and it won't ever. But if you insist, I will look at these posts and address, yet again, whatever it is you are talking about. I feel like a father whose bratty kids keep wanting to ride the merry-go-round over and over, but he's sick to his stomach.


Are you speaking of the Episcopalian "church"? Doesn't matter which, I don't agree. The "church" is not infallible, and if they are too coward to call murder murder, then their opinion of the subject is anti-Biblical, anti-Science, doesn't mean crud:

"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be." Psalm 139:13-16

Gunslinger, that was just a ducking of the highest order. I'm like a chess player who has found a strong new line and you are still concocting your antidote. I asked very specific things above in those 4 posts and the ball is now in your court. If this were tennis, it'd be me going past deuce to my advantage. Care to save yourself?

"The Church is not infallible?". I needed a double take there. They do think abortion is morally wrong and evil, they even wrote it in caps lock. However, they are prepared to accept that rape exonerates the rape victim who gets an abortion.

It's the Church of England but you don't care about that anyway.

No, I think you'll find that they cite the Bible in their position but why would you know that? You never read the links I post.

have you heard of any breakthrough scientific discovery recently ??

if not why?

Seanus


This argument is not at all pertinent or valid. Why? The DNA is present in the beginning, guiding the GROWING BODY from the point of conception. To equate this to computers, you would need a "hardware" that's own pre-imbedded SOFTWARE was causing it to grow and expand in size constantly. There is no such thing.

And who are YOU to say that a fertilized egg is not sentient? How do you know it is not? At that point it IS a boy or girl, it already is decided the hair color, eye color, etc. The only true method to determine sentience in a pre-born baby is to actually BE the baby. But we also have facts, aside from the presence of all the DNA at conception, the HEARTBEAT AT 3 WEEKS, REGULAR BRAINWAVES AT 6-8 WEEKS. Like I said, only memories I really can remember at 5 years old and up. I guess before then I was not "sentient" eh?

And as for AI being "sentience" ie the Data (from Star Trek) example, AI can only have as much intelligence as a human has imparted into it. Even computer programs for "random" selection, are not truly random, and follow a PRE-PROGRAMMED logic. Programmed by,.....HUMANS!

Here's a FACT for you: at 8 weeks old, the baby will open its mouth, and jerk AWAY from pain-causing instruments. And THAT is only a demonstration that WE, being OUTSIDE THE WOMB, can perceive. Hmmm.

In summation, I DON'T WANT TO EVER HEAR YOUR LYING, BASELESS, FACTLESS "ARGUMENTS" ABOUT SENTIENCE, EVER! YOU CANNOT PROVE SENTIENCE DOES NOT BEGIN AT CONCEPTION, AND SCIENCE CONTINUES TO SHOW AWARENESS AT A LOWER AND LOWER AGE IN THE PREBORN CHILD!

Clear enough for you?


It likely is the only one of its kind. The "choicers" are not at all concerned with such things, but only in espousing emotionalism of rape in general to further their PROFITEERING from the death of the unborn. Would you believe A) a group of people who support rights of pre-born babies, and are demonstrably willing to support all children, in word and in deed, emotionally and financially, regardless of the damage to their own pocketbook, or B) a group of people who rake in loads of CASH from the deaths of the pre-born in question?

Seems like a hard question to me,...


Oh I absolutely do. As a matter of fact, I have always brought religion as last in all my arguments. I have always called upon science and reason, (both creations of God) firstly. Read them, and tell me that is not true, I DARE YOU!

In the future, please do not BLATANTLY LIE like this again.


The wicked will do what the wicked will do. But their evil deeds should be illegal to make them fearful, and so they can be rightly punished when they are caught carrying out their evil plans. Same as with any other form of murder.

But none of this changes the FACT that abortion rates climbed THROUGH THE ROOF when abortion was made legal, and the public was LIED TO by those who profit from it! But please, continue to tell me more lies.

And the Heroin junky is far more likely to die of AIDS from an infected needle, than if Heroin use was made legal. We should legalize and publicly subsidize his destructive behavior, like we do abortion?


No. 23 weeks doesn't mean ****. Immediate sentience not only does NOT prove non-personhood, but your "sentience begins 23 weeks" argument is a flat out LIE. But please, continue to bring it up time and time again. I know it makes you feel special, like you had ground to stand on. But don't look down,...you might realize that it's only a piece of drifwood,...and it's crumbling faster,...and faster....


Where did you get your statistics, please? CDC tells me that in 1990, legal abortions rate had climbed to nearly 1.5 Million. So even IF we take your statistics (how do you compile statistics for something that is illegal, and if so where did the study come from, who performed the study?) then abortion STILL showed an increase by almost 100% from '73 to 1990.

But again, where are the statistics? And who are these thousands of women dead and deformed from illegal abortions? (and why should we feel bad that they died from seeking something that was widely accepted as murder?)

Please address these point immediately.


How do YOU know she wouldn't see it as hers? Sure, the kid would be ridiculed IF EVERYONE KNEW AND TOLD! But kids are ridiculed all the time for things they have no control over. Doesn't TOUCH the fact they are HUMAN BEINGS and worthy of being defended!

So please, by all means, provide me with some research to demonstrate the horrible quality of life these children of rape endure. You won't. But even if you did, it wouldn't change the FACT of their humanity, which is the CORE of this debate.


The rape violated her privacy, yes. The abortion would FURTHER invade her privacy, her womanhood, her emotional well-being, and the CHILD'S LIFE!

There. All your puny,wretched "arguments". All of them cut down by the sword and strewn across the battlefield like the refuse that they are. But please, send more.