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Polish public property to be destroyed by Italian company to set up a pub.


mbiernat 3 | 107  
9 Sep 2009 /  #1
An ancient green park area on the Vistula river in Krakow across from the Wawel, will be developed. This is public park land. And in its place will be SAO pub which they mask as a beach.

poland-claritaslux/blog/plaza-krakow-beach-sao/

Why has the city government allowed the lowest form of development of priceless green area?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254  
9 Sep 2009 /  #2
That blog sounds like it was written by someone with a terrible grasp of English...
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
9 Sep 2009 /  #3
It is not that bad and it is more about what a someone has to say rather than how they say it. So you would agree a disco and pub should be build in a Public park?
dnz 17 | 710  
9 Sep 2009 /  #4
So some italian company is going to dump a load of sand and erect some canvas buildings on the riverside and charge people to go there,

If this works this is an epic business idea, I wonder if this would work on the banks of the warta?
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
10 Sep 2009 /  #5
It is an Italian 'construction company". I know Italian construction companies are really honest :) and no connected to the mafia. Never. No way.

In Boston the simply spent money and cleaned the river. In Krakow, they put up a drink bar and night club in the park and call it a cultural center.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
10 Sep 2009 /  #6
Its not even a permenant structure, what's the problem? Also whilst its a "public" park, it actually belongs to your govenment, so they can do what they jolly well like.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
10 Sep 2009 /  #7
Shelly what a Communist or Post communistic bloc mentality!

So put up a drink bar right?

It does not belong to the government, it belongs to the people of Poland and heritage.

That comment is a very 'communistic' mentality that it belongs to the government and they can do what they want. Are you connect to the 'night club'?

The pool is temporary but the construction is not, right?
dnz 17 | 710  
10 Sep 2009 /  #8
Nothing wrong with building a good night club, how was Shelleys post communistic? Its a capitalist society and this is a capitalist venture by a private company. I can't see anything wrong with it, As if the rest of Krakow hasn't been geared up for tourist anyway.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
10 Sep 2009 /  #9
I agree with capitalism,however, in Economics 101 there is something called a public goods and something called private goods. Private land can be developed based on market forces.

I am an Economist by the way.

However, public goods are subject to negative externalities. That is they are for the people as a whole. For example, this is why we restrict toxic pollution in the air. It has an affect on everyone.

Even Adam Smith understood this. read the Wealth of Nations .

Shelly's comment was 'the government can do whatever they want with public land'. This is not true. That is a communist mentality. They can not build a casino in the castle and should not build a drink bar on a park right across from the castle with the profits going to Italy.

This is very historic public park land.

This is amazing.

Something intersting is clean the river like in Boston or the Biosphere in Montreal, not a drink and booze bar. This is an insult to the history of Krakow.

Bars and pubs are fine of private land, not historical Polish land. Clear?
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
10 Sep 2009 /  #10
Shelly what a Communist or Post communistic bloc mentality!

hardly, I was stating a fact, the land is owned by the government (local council)..anything publically owned is not actually owned by the public it merely means it is not "privately" owned, municipal parks in the UK can be used for whatever reason the council deems acceptable, even selling off land has been known, you should see the lovely block of flats which was built on an old cemetry!

I am an Economist by the way.

Good for you, then you will understand a little about business and how it helps a country grow.

So some italian company is going to dump a load of sand and erect some canvas buildings on the riverside and charge people to go there,

Easily removed, as I said, not a perm structure, so no real damage done.

Why has the city government allowed the lowest form of development of priceless green area?

Welcome to the real world, because of the over crowding in the UK due to mass migration to my country, we are building on greenbelt because we have run out of brownfield sites!

Shelly's comment was 'the government can do whatever they want with public land'. This is not true. That is a communist mentality.

No, actually its not, read my other point.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
10 Sep 2009 /  #11
Shelly I watch it being built with concrete and foundation. Not a temporary structure. I can send photos.

Steel and concrete and massive machines.

If you think having blocks on historic land and green areas is right you have no vision, this is historic land for future generations and your childrens children not to be wasted on bars, discos and beer drinking that could have been built a few hundred yards down the river on private land.

But the fact is they did not want to pay for it.

History promotes torists not drink bars and night clubs. You have not imagination. Look at my examples in montreal and other cities.

And the idea on public land is horrible, Poland has a lot of corruption in city offices you know that. It does not represent the people fully.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
10 Sep 2009 /  #12
If you think having blocks on historic land and green areas is right you have no vision,

No I dont agree, I didnt say i agreed with anything, I merely pointed out that your government can do what it jolly well likes.

But the fact is they did not want to pay for it.

Blame your government - they sold it, do they not have to advertise it in the local paper to notify people of their intentions, this way people can object..thats what they do in the UK and trust me when they do try it, the public do make a stink about it.

Poland has a lot of corruption in city offices you know that.

There you go, someone got a backhander (Im sure it happens here too).

History promotes torists not drink bars and night clubs.

Both do.

i thought from some comment on here that it wasnt a perm structure...I think someone mentioned canvas, which lead me to believe it was a tent like structure.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
10 Sep 2009 /  #13
People in Krakow are very upset about it and there have been protests, and delayed about two years. But money talks.

The Italian 'bosses' and city officials ' worked out some 'deal'.
wzgrza - | 46  
11 Sep 2009 /  #14
It all comes down to one greedy piece of sh!t who will be dipping his hands in this, and collecting the money for it. Without a care in the world for the land, and the historic value of it.

Makes me sick, typical mentality in Poland, especially in the Government. I can't wait till that communist generation dies out.

Oh and of course your gonna get all the foreigners in this thread saying how great of an idea it is.. because they don't give a flying fk... why should they.
inkrakow  
11 Sep 2009 /  #15
It all comes down to one greedy piece of sh!t who will be dipping his hands in this, and collecting the money for it.

Aren't they leasing the land from the city - in which case money comes into our coffers. God knows, we need it.

the historic value of it.

There was a beach here until the 1950s.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
11 Sep 2009 /  #16
The beach in the 1950s was free. It was free for all to use and it did not sell booze.

The beach will be open for only 8 weeks the other 44 weeks a night club and bar on public land.

So why can not I and everyone else in Krakow 'lease' public land for discos and night clubs like these 'Italian bosses' did? Why can the Italian bosses not lease private land, like everyone else?

Why can the city not think of something better to generate money? Maybe a theme park for kids, this is a night club selling vodka and cigarettes.

No tourists will come to Krakow because we have one more Pub here in Krakow.

But if they built something with imagination like the BioDome or super park for kids, or a Polish history center, ever tourist coming to Poland would visit this, even if it is a wax museum. But a Drink bar! It is a stupid use of public land.

The city has a lot of money, they just use it in the wrong way, and the lowest common denominator of development.
Harry  
11 Sep 2009 /  #17
They can not build a casino in the castle

Why not? I reckon that'd be a real winner.
plk123 8 | 4,150  
11 Sep 2009 /  #18
Why has the city government allowed the lowest form of development of priceless green area?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It does not belong to the government, it belongs to the people of Poland and heritage.

hahaha

This is not true. That is a communist mentality.

no it's not.. not at all.. it's actually very capitalistic idea.. this is done all the time in the US.

Bars and pubs are fine of private land, not historical Polish land. Clear?

obviously you are not clear. it's going in and that is the bottom line.

But the fact is they did not want to pay for it.

you can bet your arse they paid for it.

Makes me sick, typical mentality in Poland, especially in the Government. I can't wait till that communist generation dies out.

dude, this is capitalism at it's best.. this is not communism in any form or manner.

So why can not I and everyone else in Krakow 'lease' public land for discos and night clubs like these 'Italian bosses' did? Why can the Italian bosses not lease private land, like everyone else?

location, location, location.. the number 1 directive of capitalism.
inkrakow  
11 Sep 2009 /  #19
So why can not I and everyone else in Krakow 'lease' public land for discos and night clubs like these 'Italian bosses' did?

You can. Just read the Komunikaty in GW every week to see what's coming up, or trawl through the ZBk and city websites to see what is open to public tender.
wzgrza - | 46  
11 Sep 2009 /  #20
dude, this is capitalism at it's best.. this is not communism in any form or manner.

Not saying it's communism, what I meant it is the greedy communist generation, who is only interested in filling their own pockets, going against and disregarding public opinion on the matter. Capitalism isnt always that great anyways.. to an extent.

The public is against this from what I have heard yes?

There was a beach here until the 1950s.

What did this beach look like?

I have a feeling there is a difference between that beach, and to the little beach pub project they have going on now.
=====================================

Polish land shouldnt be being sold out to foreigners at the rate it is now anyways. It is excessive.
inkrakow  
12 Sep 2009 /  #21
The public is against this from what I have heard yes?

Not quite true. There are many people in favour of these new facilities which are more geared towards locals than pretty much anything else built in these parts.

What did this beach look like?

Of course it was different - it was a few years after WW2! Have a look at miasta.gazeta.pl/krakow/51,35812,4821070.html?i=2

The caption says it's from1965

Polish land shouldnt be being sold out to foreigners at the rate it is now anyways. It is excessive.

AFAIK it hasn't been sold - it's been leased. And the company is a Polish joint venture with Italians.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
12 Sep 2009 /  #22
Also whilst its a "public" park, it actually belongs to your govenment, so they can do what they jolly well like.

It belongs to the Polish nation, not the Polish government.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
13 Sep 2009 /  #23
Every person I have spoken to face to face says it is a stupid idea to turn a Public park into a nightclub and bar. Krakow is park of Polish history and needs to be protected. Its a total abuse of power.

The Italian bosses will make money selling cigarettes and booze to Polish people on their Park lands and calling it a 'beach'.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386  
13 Sep 2009 /  #24
Plac Bema in Wroclaw was a park. Now it is the half empty, seemingly unwanted Google building.
The voice of the masses will be ignored in the sometimes wasted effort to create jobs.
Or is it some kind of legacy the mayor is trying to create for himself.
The word 'backhander' also comes to mind too.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
13 Sep 2009 /  #25
I think there is a lot of brides and corruption still in Poland. I do not mind it so much when it comes to things that are not public. I did not know about Plac Bema! Wow.
sledz 23 | 2,250  
13 Sep 2009 /  #26
The Italian bosses will make money selling cigarettes and booze to Polish people on their Park lands and calling it a 'beach'

Sounds like fun, maybe some people like to have a few cocktails on the beach:)

So what did the ginzos name their pub??
plk123 8 | 4,150  
14 Sep 2009 /  #27
Not saying it's communism, what I meant it is the greedy communist generation.

you're right about that last thing... capitalism is way, way more heartless. <- not kidding either.

Polish land shouldnt be being sold out to foreigners at the rate it is now anyways. It is excessive.

that's a double edged sward.. exclusivity doesn't really work that well.
OP mbiernat 3 | 107  
14 Sep 2009 /  #28
Capitalism is fine, if the uząd (city office) of the city understand that there is a clear division between private property, that can be used for capitalistic development and public parks.

Every city in the USA has strict zoning laws on private land. And the public land which belongs to everyone is used for parks. If the city has no intelligent ideas they should plant trees and a garden, maybe a museum. Not sell booze and cigarettes with the profits going to 'Italian bosses'. If something like this happened in Boston say on the Boston commons or by the river, it would be all over the news and no one would allow it. In Boston they developed the river very nice. Its a famous place, but certainly with no junky, trashy profit developments.

Did anyone ever see Dr. Suess and the Lorax? Your will know what I mean about development and Krakow. facebook/home.php#/group.php?gid=87590490562 is a facebook group that is active to help the Krakow, government not make foolish choices.

Polish Constitution, Article 5:

'The national government shall... safeguard the national heritage and shall ensure the protection of the natural environment
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444  
15 Sep 2009 /  #29
AFAIK it hasn't been sold - it's been leased. And the company is a Polish joint venture with Italians.

well, they must have a permit from the city of Krakov, so perhaps somebody had sticky hands in the local government.
inkrakow  
15 Sep 2009 /  #30
the media reports say that the conservation and city architects departments are all in favour of this development as it fits with the development plan for the area. It would have had to been officially approved by both in order to proceed. They're pretty difficult to bribe these days since a couple of low level officials were very publicly prosecuted a few years back and are serving jail time - it's more likely that the city got some other form of kickback.

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