Is it time to tighten gun laws in Poland?

Question 7

U shoot sb in self defence for fear of ur life. U feel there was an imminent threat. U kill them. What's ur penalty under American Law?

Well it's pretty dicey and depends on the state. A little Jewish guy named Bernard Goetz got away with it in New York in the 80's though.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Generally you can kill someone robbing your house (not that I'm condoning it) , esp the South and Midwest.

First you will be investigated...the gun confiscated for tests. The local prosecuter will decide whether or not to charge you with a crime based on the investigations findings. In some states this is faster and easier than others. If they deem it a "good shoot" then you get your gun back and no legal problems befall you. Much the same process that occurs when a cop shoots someone.

I'm not sure why point of this discussion keeps turning back to the US. We were discussing right to bear arms, and this is Polish Forums. However if you insist, let us discuss. There were about 12,300 firearm homicides in the US last year. Out of these firearm homicides, most were related to gang violence and drug wars. Next place was domestic dispute. Random violence below those.

Remember US is a big place with over 300 million inhabitants. Speaking about firearm murders per capita, many countries are far higher than US, including Venezuela, Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, Paraguay, Estonia, Northern Ireland, Philippines, and nearly all of Africa and Central America. Venezuela and Brazil had highest numbers of firearm homicides total, regardless of per capita, despite smaller populations than US.

And of course this is data collected by entities such as WHO. They can not tell how many citizens that are murdered by firearms where data is not readily available because it is not available or released by governments. Maybe because some governments are not sure if they must include shooting of their own people in such statistics.

Overall, Poland's firearm homicide rate is nearly 13 times less than US, with just 0.29 per 100 000 capita. Not bad. But of course Poland only has a small mafia problem, is very homogenous society, and has no gang/drug wars comparable to the US.

The stastical correlation between gun control and firearm deaths is most apparent not in homicides but in suicides. Last year US had about 16,500 firearm suicides. Of these suicides, gun-control advocates like to use such numbers to exaggerate their claims, but we know that if someone wants to kill himself, he will find a method. In all developed countries where there are guns available, such as Switzerland, Finland, France, Austria, Canada, Norway, rates of firearm suicides are similar. It makes sense that in a developed country, you would seek a developed tool to end your life most quickly and painlessly.

So yes US is not doing so hot, but also not doing so badly in relative terms. If America could get a grasp on gang problems its firearm murder rate would likely go down to that approaching many countries in Europe. But I do not believe it is purely a policy issue related to gun control.

Wise words sir.

If outside your home, you can only shoot somebody in defense in US if you believe your life is at risk, which means the criminal must have the motivation, means, and opportunity to do so. Furthermore, you can only defend yourself with proportional force to what your attacker is using. Thus, if your attacker has a weapon that could kill you, wants to kill you, and has the opportunity to do so, only then can you shoot in self defense. It is very much like being a police officer. You can not shoot an unarmed criminal who has stolen your bag or picked your pocket.

Rules change inside your home. When somebody breaks into your house, you have the right to shoot him. That does not mean you must shoot him, but it gives you the legal framework to do so.

"America has this freedom and it's very difficult for non-Americans to understand why we feel so passionately about it. It is the most unique freedom ever given to a people," said Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the NRA. (Reporting by Daniel Trotta; Editing by Eddie Evans)

OK, so it's deeply entrenched in ur culture. That doesn't mean that there can't be discussions on it.

sbcoalition.org

please read this. I usually take an article and dissect it with my students. Rather than go round in circles, let's discuss sth meaty and substantial. I will concede that the situation is messy due to the black market so bearing arms is important as a counterbalance and defensive option. Also, cops abuse their privelege sometimes so citizens must be afforded a similar protection.

Let's discuss the article

I legally own guns and have had them for years
I never robbed a bank or started shooting into crowds, I`ll go to the gun range
or skeet shooting sometimes but I make sure to adbide by all the rules.
If somebody were to break into my house in the middle of the night theres a very good chance of the perpetrator being shot:)

Yeah, we have to leave some things to trust in life. It's just staggering when u read that over 30,000 people die a year from gun blasts. That's more than the death toll of US soldiers after 5 years of war in Iraq.

Its bad when these kids get a hold of a weapon and start shooting up thier schools??
They should make it harder to get a gun card all you really have to do is answer
6 or 7 questions on a form and not have any felonys..

Well, yeah. By not having any felonies doesn't mean that you won't commit any but private gun shop owners still have the right of refusal.

Parents just need to be more responsible by keeping their guns hidden in a secure place.

Why should guns be hard to get? They help to ensure ur survival through self defence in the event of a potentially lethal attack

I asked my wife to look into getting a sniper rifle for me in Poland, for vermin and such. After a quick look at the procedure we decided to torpedo it.

Even when given clear statistics on US situation, you still claim this is not the meat? Hmm. Then exactly as I said gun-control advocates do, you combine suicides and accidents into total number of firearm deaths to mislead the average reader to think there are over 30 000 firearms murders?

Moreover as I have explained the right to bear arms is not unique to US in any way. Usually it is only Americans who are tricked into thinking their rights are unique, are you sure you are not from US?

Well I do realize that you feel very strongly on the issue, and it is pointless to argue. I am in favor of giving just facts and not obsfucating the situation. If Americans are brainwashed into thinking their Bill of Rights is somehow unique, then EU brainwashes its people to think that America is still na dzikim zachodzie. :)

Not my view, Dawid. It was from an NRA rep. I'm not American, no.

Let me give u some stats, Dawid. Only 3% were accidents. So, from 31,000 to 29,800 per year, wow. Yes, 55% are suicides. Suicide is self murder

I dont know if you have children but I would imagine if you did there is a very good chance that he or she may be able to get hold of your gun and blow away the teacher and a few class mates.

There you go again Seanus.. You are like a Pit Bull. You latch on to something and wont let go. You and I discussed this before. What difference does it make how you commit suicide? Be it by a gun, knife. screw driver, jumping off of a bridge or window. ( The wall street crash of 1928) We have cases here in Florida where old people commit suicide by locking themselves in a garage and breath carbon monoxide,out of desperation.

Guns dont kill people. It is the People using the gun that kill.

The point being is that those "few nutters" are LEGAL gun owners who then carry out mass executions.

In February this year in the US:


It's an interesting blog. you should read it.

So the arguments on this thread about if you take away the right to bare arms, only the criminals will be carring them is quite weak. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who die from illegal guns are other people who are carrying illegal guns.

And I can't remember reading anywhere about anybody carrying an illegal gun and commuting a mass execution. Only from people who had legally registered guns. Strange that!

The UK which has extremely tight gun laws has seen a reduction in offences in recent years.


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

more here: gun-control-network.org/GCN02.htm

The article at the start of this thread is about an incident with a legal weapon. If said weapon was illegal the chances are this wouldn't have happened.

Pit Bull, well, a show of passion and conviction isn't always a bad thing.

OK, I c I am wasting my time. Guns are great, guns allow me to kill people. Guns allow me to blow the brains of animals out. Super!! Oh, I don't fancy slitting my wrists with cheesewire or a knife and bleeding to death, so what would make it easier? Oh, I know, I'll take a direct shot to the head and end it quickly. What else? Maybe I could frighten my neighbours, I feel a bit bored today. Like my new toy, wanna see how it works? Man, I feel powerful with this gun, nobody's gonna **** with me. I could even rob a bank with a balaclava on, I could use more money. Should I use my fists? Nah, I think I'll use a gun instead. Why don't those darned Europeans have guns on a large scale, don't they have bad guys?

Man, I tell u wot, Europe is a MY TEE big cuntry but they sure do got problems, they need to be lack us. We got guns, we got it going on my brothas. Any nig*as I can shoot today?

In every rant, there can be some logic. I'll let u choose what.

A bit of serious writing now. Guns do serve as an effective deterrent. I'll invoke my whatever Amendment right it is to freedom of speech. If Franek permits and forgives me, I'll use a statistic. In 3 out of 4 cases, the felon will not enter a house if he knows they have a gun. This effectively lowers crime. We choose dangerous dogs instead. The bad thing is that the dog could get put down, maybe there is a case for guns here? Seriously, we could at least get off the hook by defending our case and pleading self defence. What voice do dogs have?

I'm a teacher, I have more licence to see both sides. I'm not affiliated to any pro or anti gun bodies.

I sure hope that you are not teaching this crap to your students. Give the kids a break. I just hope that you are teaching them that they are allowed to exercise their own thoughts.

What crap?

Allowed to exercise their own thoughts? Geez laddie, I'm not a dictator. I let them do almost all of the talking, I just steer or give food for thought.

If everybody would carry a gun then the person who wants to kill somebody will get killed by everybody and that scares the intruder.
A study was done in several towns across the US allowing everyone in that town to own guns. And guess what? Crime was almost nonexistant in these towns.

Hmmm! It looks like Franek touched a nerve again. Touchy, touchy, touchy AWWW!

Hush now, Seanus, dont you cry. Franek is going to sing you a lulabye

A lulabye? What, u r going away now? No need for a lullaby, LOL

If it makes me come alive, u can touch those raw points all u want

Super tygrys, I'm happy 4 ya. I just imagined those high death tolls. Or were they all self defence cases?

No offense intended, Seanus, but I am sure my homework would get a bad mark in your class with my views. You are a good argument for conservatives to teach their kids at home.

US certainly has a gun culture but Europe is not far behind. Over 80 million guns in private hands of European citizens. About 1:5 Europeans own a gun. In America it is approaching 1:1.

Despite many fewer guns and much stricter regulation, Europe has had its own share of massacres as well. Dunblane, Scotland (18), Erfurt, Germany (17), Nanterre, France (8), Tuusula, Finland (9), Chieri, Italy (8), Zug, Switzerland (15), Bielefeld, Germany (8) Hungerford, England (17), to name some of worst over last decade.

This is why I do not believe that gun control advocates have all the answers. When I visited Washington DC, I knew the law there totally banned firearms in the entire state, but this did not make me feel safe to walk around the streets.

With sense of satisfaction, Franek takes a break.. Departing with a big smile on his face, and an inflated ego. Checking his six shooter to see if it is loaded.

Oh, I dunno, I don't make the same mistakes as my Prof's did and critically mark work which doesn't go along with my line of thought. I have criteria which I follow and I abide by it.

Yeah, we have crazy people too. It happens.

cigarettes dont kill people

people kill people

whats all the fuss about

get a life

Hehehe

When guns are outlawed...only the outlaws will have guns....

There are MANY Aussies with their boomsticks buried in PVC pipes or hidden in other secret places. If they ever tried a gun collection in the USA it would be very ugly. A lot of people would just give them up as many gun owners are not tuned into to the freedom and take it for granted. But...some would fight to the death and a lot of the Police and military tasked to collect them would refuse. Therefore I don't think it will happen. The antis are trying the "death by a thousand cuts' tactic instead.