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Poland has an old ambition to become a regional power


Barney 14 | 1,472  
24 Sep 2008 /  #1
I read this today just wondering what others think of this article.

"Poland has an old ambition to become a regional power in central-eastern Europe, but these ambitions were sunk by the EU. Now the US offers similar status for Poland as its ally - and the US's missile defence shield, with the installation of American weaponry allegedly pointing at Moscow, marks the crowning of that mission. The most important characteristic of the new pact is super-loyalty to Washington in foreign policy and security affairs. They see the EU as an economic club, a source of support to subsidise agriculture and infrastructure. In their eyes the common environmental and social goals of the old member states (and the left parties in the new member states) are less important than the strong cross-Atlantic ties."

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/24/balkans.russia
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
24 Sep 2008 /  #2
...The most important characteristic of the new pact is super-loyalty to Washington in foreign policy and security affairs. They see the EU as an economic club, a source of support to subsidise agriculture and infrastructure. In their eyes the common environmental and social goals of the old member states (and the left parties in the new member states) are less important than the strong cross-Atlantic ties...

It shows!

...In domestic politics they also differ from the left-liberal consensus of western Europe. Homophobic policies, mixed feelings towards Jews, strong anti-left sentiments and denial of rights to ethnic minorities are common. The only distinction is their attitude to the second world war. Poland was a victim of Nazi Germany, while the Baltic rightwingers more or less openly say that the German occupation was no worse than the Soviet rule before and after the war....

I found the comments on this article interesting too...
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Sep 2008 /  #3
Poland has an old ambition to become a regional power in central-eastern Europe,

Can you leave these ambitions?They are not really helpful for you but for others.
OP Barney 14 | 1,472  
24 Sep 2008 /  #4
What do you mean?
Wahldo  
24 Sep 2008 /  #5
of the new pact is super-loyalty to Washington in foreign policy and security affairs.

that's hyperbole.. a commitment of a 900 (right now) troops to Iraq and the missile deal doesn't constitute "super loyalty".
Crow 139 | 8,641  
24 Sep 2008 /  #6
regional power

from Baltic to Balkan via Balaton?
OP Barney 14 | 1,472  
24 Sep 2008 /  #7
that's hyperbole.. a commitment of a 900 (right now) troops to Iraq

Iraq wasn't mentioned but this was

"The aim ......... is to balance their loyalty to the US on security, their correct relationship with Russia, and their commitment to a would-be common European foreign policy."
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Sep 2008 /  #8
What do you mean?

You cannot become a regional military power by all means.(neither Germany can).They nurture you with ambitions to play game against Russia.In this game you are of course not the king but a mere soldier ready to die to save the king.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
24 Sep 2008 /  #9
This article is hyperobolic in almost all points.

Somehow my ego rised after lecture. ;)

Author doesn't understand Poland. Poland isn't hawk. Poland like many other central-eastern european countries fear Russia. Russia claiming that gas pipelines are going to be their tanks in future and threats that Poland will be nuked ...
Dekameron 1 | 146  
24 Sep 2008 /  #10
their correct relationship with Russia

Question is though whether its our relationship with Russia that is corrupt or russian relationship with us.
jbman - | 26  
24 Sep 2008 /  #11
u can only tell by judging the intentions of the ruling party.
Piorun - | 658  
24 Sep 2008 /  #12
from Baltic to Balkan via Balaton?

LMAO tempting though.

Is that a proposition to run over those former commies that are nothing more than a mouthpiece for Russia and making outrages claims? He should stick to environmental issues he may be better suited for it NOT.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
24 Sep 2008 /  #13
Poland has an old ambition to become a regional power
This is a very reasonable idea, and indeed Poland is a natural regional power in Eastern Europe...However, Poland will never achieve any kind of status/power with the current group of 'glupcy' in the leadership...Poland cannot constantly antagonize Russia, as this is a loser's game...Nor can it depend on the US, as the US is near bankruptcy, and we will not be a dependable partner in the near future...The EU?...play the game a little, but understand that the EU is just an artificial creation, with an unreadable constitution, and it is designed by untrustworthy 'intellectuals'...Rather, IMNO, Poland should develop it's own economy by trade with Russia, China, even India...Develop education, industry and build a small but solid and practical military...DeGaul from France had some good ideas in this regard...Poland should strive for neutrality in NWO conflicts.
Crow 139 | 8,641  
25 Sep 2008 /  #14
unbelieveble how Poles aren`t aware of situation

Is that a proposition to run over those former commies

You mean run across the Croatia, for example?

hardly, that could be `run`. Ustashe would `a little` slower you and Poles would found themselves on extremely hostile germanized ground. Orthodox Serbs are in great deal exterminated in today`s Croatia, Catholic Serbs almost completely croatinized... yes, that would be hostile ground for Poles. Germany perfectly controls it

are nothing more than a mouthpiece for Russia

to say something like that to a Serb is really idiotic. Isn`t even worth of discussion

Can you leave these ambitions?

in fact, those Polish plans could be useful to Serbians, to Slovakians, Czechs, Ukrainians... to all true Slavs, even to those who were Slavs in the past but aren`t anymore- for all kind of reasons

Of course, Poles should be realistic. They have to play on Serbs on the first place. Without Serbs all Polish plans to spread sphere of influence are pure fantasy. Only Serbs could help to Poles.... and, they would help them if Poland tend to be Slavic regional power, not German/British/Franch/USA `cannon fodder`

I see that Poles somehow believe to Hungarians. Well, if that can work, if Poles are more important to Hungarians then Germans, maybe Serbs and Slovakians could also profit on that.

but this talk lead us to conclusion that Tusk, working against Serbs, work against Polish interests. Poland simple must annul Kosovo recognition and turn to her traditional role on Slavic South
Piorun - | 658  
25 Sep 2008 /  #15
to say something like that to a Serb

Easy there Crow, that’s not what I meant, besides what the author refers to as an “Old Ambition” he means it in a slightly different direction. What’s interesting to me in this article is the very fact that many foreign politicians out there perceive us as a potential threat (a regional player) and see us even stronger than we see ourselves. I would expect that kind of accusation coming from our eastern or western neighbors but I would dismiss it as just another rhetoric and never take it seriously, but southern? Interesting food for thought.
Crow 139 | 8,641  
25 Sep 2008 /  #16
Poland simple must annul Kosovo recognition and turn to her traditional role on Slavic South

seams that things goes exactly in this dirrection

Speaking in New York on Wednesday, Kaczynski once again condemned the Polish government's decision to recognize Kosovo.

"I have never tried to hide that I consider it a mistake. However, the government's decision is legitimate, but I, too, have my competencies and I am saying with severity - there will be no signature of mine on appointing an ambassador to Kosovo," he was quoted as saying.

b92.net/eng/news/politics-art....25&nav_id=53743

I telling to you people.... just follow mega trends and events won`t surprise you
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
26 Sep 2008 /  #17
What is interesting 50% of Germans think that they shouldn't help Baltic states in case of Russian invasion. 35% of French share this opinion and 20% of British. (Baltic states are memebrs of NATO)

Several Russian and european politicians advice Poland to not stand up in one line with Balitic states... French diplomats claimed that they are not going to die for Ukriane, Germans support them. British diplomats want Ukraine in NATO but they slowly relent when they see resistance on continental europe. Americans in this part of europe always were positive power but unfortunately they are in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I hoped that I am going to live in calm and relaxed times. I was so wrong.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 Sep 2008 /  #18
I hoped that I am going to live in calm and relaxed times. I was so wrong.

What? Are you writing from a trench in some battle field???

PS: No German is hot on going to war with the Russians again after what we did to them....
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
26 Sep 2008 /  #19
after what we did to them....

Don't you mean, what THEY did to you?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
26 Sep 2008 /  #20
Germany and Russia have long tradition of creating zones of influence in region.

I look with suspicion on German proposals from the one hand they are nice toward Russia form the other they sponsor monuments for German soldiers in places where in the past Soviet Soldiers were holded and killed in German concentration camps.

Nice example is Salaspils in Latvia. There was memeorial Concentration camp now German city Brema sponsor rebuilding of this place and instead of that there will be memorial monument for German soldiers.

Balts have traumatic past and it is easy to manipulate them but what is German aim in such provocations. They sponsor memorials for German soldiers in former German Nazi Death camps and in the same moment are not likely to deffend Balitc states in case of Russian invasion.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 Sep 2008 /  #21
Balts have traumatic past and it is easy to manipulate them but what is German aim in such provocations.

You mean that?

en.rian.ru/world/20080925/117109698.html

Juris Vrublevskis, the director of the Salaspils memorial camp, denied however that a monument was being built to commemorate German soldiers.

"No one is going to erect a monument to German soldiers on the territory of the former death camp," he said. "Work is currently underway near the Salaspils memorial to landscape a cemetery containing 256 German soldiers who perished after the war in a Soviet camp for German prisoners of war located in the same place."

What provocation?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
26 Sep 2008 /  #22
The newspaper said that the construction of the monument was being financed by the administration of the German city of Bremen.

According to documents presented at the Nuremberg Trials, over 100,000 people, including children, were killed at the Nazi death camp. Torture and 'medical experiments' were common.

More and more I read about whole situation. More and more I start to understand what is going on. My symphaties I have presented today are valid. You push Balts in Russian hands because you don't want NATO. You want new game. When NATO once will break 5th article ... it will be your success. Russians are very sensitive it this case and you know that, you don't want to deffend Baltic states you respect their monuments in Germany. In the same moment you sponsor such projects in current situation. You provoke Russians and create their agression.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 Sep 2008 /  #23
Again..."What provocation"?

There will be a memorial cemetary build outside the camp for killed german soldiers in said camp...AND????

Of course are Germans going to take care of it...we have the "Kriegsgräberfürsorge" who takes care of german war dead cemetaries in foreign countries....so do other countries too as they care and finance the memorials to their own soldiers in other countries!

volksbund.de/kgs

What is your problem???
How does such memorial "push the Baltics into russian hands"???

Please be more clear....

In the same moment you sponsor such projects in current situation. You provoke Russians and create their agression.

Here are photos of cemetaries for german soldiers in Russia also cared for by the german Kriegsgräberfürsorge!
(You can find alot of info of that....google is your friend)

panoramio.com/photo/10225273

Baltiysk, Kaliningradskaya Oblast' (Russia)

panoramio.com/photos/original/10225273.jpg - Cemetary for fallen german soldiers in Russia

(How horrible....I wonder why Russia didn't invade already)

What a provocation...

volksbund.de/kgs/land.asp?land=99075

In den zurückliegenden Jahren konnte die Lage und der heutige Zustand von 813 Kriegsgefangenen- und Interniertenfriedhöfen in 37 Gebieten Russlands erfasst werden. (Stand 31.12.2005 ) Bisher konnten in der Russischen Föderation ohne ehem. Ostpreußen über 100 Soldatenfriedhöfe, Kriegsgefangenen - und Interniertenfriedhöfe gebaut bzw. instand gesetzt werden.

Laut Planung wird in der Russischen Föderation noch ein Sammelfriedhof im Gebiet Smolensk bzw. in einem Smolensk angrenzenden Gebiet gebaut. Nach einem geeigneten Grundstück wird gesucht.

Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
26 Sep 2008 /  #24
Do you know Russian arguments for crusing Ukrainians and Baltic states. You give them one more. Russians are in deep paranoia. KGB agents on the top use it very well. German diplomacy supported balts decision of moving Soviet monuments ... now there are neo nazi marches and events like this one.

The worst in that all is fact that Russians are playing hardcore game and you give them arguments. You don't hold one line with USA UK or Poland in case of Russia but in the same moment when you talk about Russophobic countries you support such events. Opinion polls show something - 50% of Germans don't want to deffend Balts. It means that they take into consideration this invasion and fear Russia, this fear is so strong that they don't care about NATO.

In current situation such actions provoke Russian miniority and Russia.

Now I use German argumentation !

Yes many politicians form Russia and Europe come to Poland and tell us. Don't stand in one line with Nazi balts it is not your team.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 Sep 2008 /  #25
What "event" for f*ucks sake???
We are still talking about a small cemetary for german war dead!
There are thousands of them in Russia and nobody makes a drama out of it!
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
26 Sep 2008 /  #26
I will tell you what Poland wants.

Poland wants normal situation in region, Balts developing their economies. Poland developing our economy. Russians without paranoia. This small cmetnery is not spearate case. German politicians supported moving of Russian monuments form Talin. It would be normal but officialy you have much different line when we talk about Russia. We have German cmenteries in Poland it is not problem.

The problem is that Balts are in real danger. I'd say that this all events even with this small cmentery cause problems for them.

Germans form the one hand don't have problems with Soviet monuments in Germany from the other support strange tendences in Balitic states.

If you believe in EU you should know that in this moment such tendences cause real problems. Russian miniority fell threat ... KGB Putin use it very well.

Poland is happy that this countries are free and we wants peace, democracy and strong NATO.
Dekameron 1 | 146  
26 Sep 2008 /  #27
What "event" for f*ucks sake???
We are still talking about a small cemetary for german war dead!
There are thousands of them in Russia and nobody makes a drama out of it!

BB i believe the point here is that the german soldiers had it coming serving the Third Reich and while people can live with you honoring your dead they cannot live with you honoring your dead on the site of a concentration camp.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2008 /  #28
A regional power, LOL. Platitudes abound in these times
Tran Anh 2 | 72  
3 Oct 2008 /  #29
Funny article...

I will tell you what Poland wants. Poland is happy that this countries are free and we wants peace, democracy and strong NATO.

A good and worthy post.

Actually there is nothing wrong with ambition from a middle-sized country. As ever, the world need at least ten of them to materialise their intense ambition in order to salvage the damage done by the successful realisation of just a relatively humble ambition of a great power...
orzel - | 15  
3 Oct 2008 /  #30
Poland can become regional power if they stop licking other's arses. Before it was East now it's the West. Those fools do not realize that America has nothing to offer and won't give a rat's ass about Poland. American economy is going rapidly downhill and so is their military. I do not understand why Poland wants to fight someone else's war. Why not mind your own business and stay neutral, improve Poland's economy so people don't have to struggle elsewhere to survive. Seems like the leaders are not in country or it's people's interests, if they were, Poland would be regional power. And don't get me started about Nato and Eu. F*ck them both!

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