Polish minority abroad and minorities in Poland

Neither ... nor.
But still a nice try to put Polish minority problem in Lithuania on the same level as Russo-Latvian or Russo-Estonian conflict.
What is obviously not the case.

Well, OK, if by closer ties with Russia you mean Polish participation in Nord Stream, I am not against it. Yes, Russian gas is the cheaper than from other sources. The problem is that Russians see it as a means of pressure on recipient countries. Ao, apart from the new gas pipe, Poland should also built a gas port for tankers to secure the supplies in case of Russian cut-off.

I am really curious how the issue of Nord Stream is going to end.


Well, I would like to hear more of your arguments before I agree. :):)

What is the problem, Sasha? Why is there always a problem? Russians are "oppressed" everywhere: In Ukraine - it is the Crimea, in the Baltic region - it is Estonia and Lithuania, in the Caucaus - it is Georgia. Why are you always "oppressed"? I am not saying it sarcastically, I just want you to explain me the reason. Thank you in advance.

The problem is that Lithuanians weren't so efficient in ethnic cleanising like Ukrainians ... and many Poles stayed, their land has been confiscaded and they lost it like most Lithuanians. Now Lithuanian government gives back the land and properties for all citizens ... avoids only this with Polish origin... Maybe Lithuanian citizens with Polish origin who live there should start to wear something like Star of Dawid to be noticable on streets... Or maybe if Lithuanian government makes law which works only in regions without people with Polish origin ... there should be kind of authonomy in region where Poles are in majority...

You know In my opinion Poland should diversify as much as it is possible gas and oil supplies. To be stronger in negotiations with Polish strategic partners ... main strategic partner should be Russia...

When I have been talking about Nord Stream I have been talking about current Polish european partners. They simple faild as reliable partners ...

Who are they, Salomon?


If Ukrainians were efficient in the BS you are talking about, believe, it would be quite different now. But they never did it, especially like some conquering the "Promised land".



Funny. Diversification and singled-out partner.


Would you supply an article, please.

kresy.pl/serwis-polski,goniec-kresowy?zobacz/litwa:-nie-bedzie-zwrotu-ziemi


Mainly Germany.

Why?

Not another Nord Stream fanatic....
Listen, the other pipelines will keep working...you will still get your transfer fee...

No offence but saying something like that you prove only your invalid knowledge of Polish mentality.

I just can't hear it anymore...some Poles just don't want to accept the real reasons for this pipeline and feel perpetual attacked and betrayed as if Germany has nothing better to do.

That is irrational...what do you advise?

Personally I'm not some windmill fighter of La Mancha, however I'm not quite sure about ecological aspects of the pipe.
And that's true.
As for my fellow Poles - only German politicians are in position to talk the issue with them now.
Just somebody like Mrs.Merkel.
In order to make it a win - win option.

Read yout arguments in debate about Nord Stream. He behaaves like German politician ...

In my opinion it is better to talk straight to Russians ... becuase there is only stab in the back waiting in Germany ...

I am sorry, I used a short-cut. The full meaning was: it is a Polish prerogative to help Lithuanians and other Baltics keep their independence.


Poles in Belarus want to have their own organization chosen without Belarus regime`s supervision. Lukashenka refuses and there are two organizations in fact: legal chosen by Lukashenka and illegal but acknowledged by Polish government. Of course, "illegal" Poles are repressed by the regime.

Recently there was a congress of "illegals"

Here`s a list of repressions which are mild, not of stalinist type, of course. Lukashenka is a nice dictator. :):):)
spring96.org/en/tags/union-of-poles/

e.g.,
05.09.2008 Hrodna: On 4 September Mechyslau Yaskevich, the deputy head of the Union of Poles in Belarus, was detained by the police and guarded to Kastrychnitski district police department.

19.02.2009 Teresa Silivonchyk, head of the Baranavichy branch of the unrecognized by the authorities Union of Poles in Belarus (UPB), received a warning from the prosecutor's office about criminal responsibility for activity in an unregistered organization. According to Andrzej Poczobut, member of the council of the organization and journalist of Gazeta Wyborcza, it hasn't been the first case when the authorities decided to use notorious article 193-1 of the Criminal Code against members of the Union of Poles in Belarus, Radio Racyja reports.

Salomon, I have read the article you presented, but as far as I understand, cease of giving off the land was due to the economic crisis and involved not only Polish people, but everyone. Of course, there is some advantageous policies directed towards Lithuanians, but again it is their land and they can take any laws they want within set norms.

Nat answering your question about Russians being oppressed... You ask why? I respond - mostly because of policy conducted by Russian Government, in particular because they're just not native. I don't mean to second our policy but I do think it's not fair people pays for politicians intrigues.

Got you, Pawy. Think Lukaschenko(a) wants to keep the power at any price. He's on of those whose mindset could be thoroughly described by the word en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik

Yes, it could be. He rules Belarus just like he used to rule a kolchoz in the past.

PS. The word is also used in Polish, borrowed from Russian.


Lithuanians probably have bigger national complexes than Poles. Don`t forget it is a small nation which panics at the thought of being diluted in some larger entity by stronger neighbours. They have survived the times of the Soviet Union with considerable losses and are intent on preserving their identity. Hence the problems with surname spelling and land redistribution. They are afraid of Polish influence because they remember how easily Lithuanian elites got polonised in the past.

Poles should be aware of Lithuanian fears and deal with them in velvet gloves.

You remember what ferment was raised in media and by politicians in Poland when Germans started coming back and reclaiming their property through Polish courts?

The same applies to Lithuania but their fears are tenfold Polish ones.

More problems:

According to Tygodnik Wilenszczyzny Polish language weekly Lithuanian authorities don't respect EU convention (*). Jurgis Jurkevicius, the representative of Lithuanian government in the Vilnius district municipality demands removal of Polish names of the streets in Maišiagala (Mejszagola), Raudondvaris (Czerwony Dwór), Rieše (Rzesza) and Suderve (Suderwa). Bailiffs will remove street signs with Polish names from public places. It's not clear, if the signs can be removed from houses owned by individuals .

In late May 2008, Association of Poles in Lithuania issued a letter, addressed to the government of Lithuania, complaining about anti-minority (primarily, anti-Polish) rhetoric in media, citing upcoming parliamentary elections as a motive, and asking for better treatment of the ethnic minorities.

absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Polish_minority_in_Lithuania

Data:
The Polish minority in Lithuania (; ) numbers 234,989 persons and, at 6.74% of the population of Lithuania, forms the largest ethnic minority in modern Lithuania and one of the largest Polish diaspora group in a former Soviet republic. Poles are concentrated in the Vilnius region (Polish: Wilno). People of Polish ethnicity have lived on the territory of modern Lithuania for many centuries.

pawian
Poles succeed in Lithuania
thenews.pl
08.06.2009

In yesterday's European Parliament elections in Lithuania, Poles managed to get enough votes to secure a representative for European Parliament.

The Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania (EAPL) gathered 8,46 percent of votes and won victory in four districts: Vilnius (71 percent of votes), Salcininkai (80,6 percent), Trakai (31,38 percent), Svencionys (22,42 percent).

Waldemar Tomaszewski, the head of the EAPL, will be the first Pole in Lithuanian history to become a member of European Parliament.
"It is a superb result!" commented Tomaszewski, who admitted that the party owes a part of its success to a low voter turnout.

"While in the EP I'm going to focus on three main issues: energy, human rights, including the rights of minorities, and ideology, i.e. spreading Christian values," added the politician, describing his political program.

Moronic policy of Lithuanian governments causing that most of Lithuanian Poles vote for such silly national 'party' like EAPL.

Why silly?

Were guns pointed at their heads to vote?

For the same reason why PSL is silly party. They care only about votes either Poles or peasants. Voters views in this case are less important than same fact of them being Poles or peasants.


This is natural reaction when you see yourself discriminated by government.

Isn't that the case in most countries, lesser? Do you really believe that local politics work well in most countries?

What form is this 'discrimination' taking?

Facing a fact that Lithuanian government is discriminating them because their are Poles is only natural to build support basic on nationality.
Whats wrong with it?

Lesser, if they don't like it they can either lobby for change or leave.

I don't think so, such states deserve to be criticized by their own citizens in first place.


Read previous posts, lack of re-privatization to ethnic Poles for example.


I have write that this is natural reaction, this is nothing wrong in this case.


Sorry but this is ridiculous advise that one could provide also to Jews in Third Reich. They are Lithuanian citizens and what is more native population. Lithuanian state acts against its own constitution.

Criticism is normal in democracy, people can speak out. Poles can do the same there.

Why was there a lack of re-privatization in your opinion, lesser?

I was being practical, lesser. If you can't orchestrate change from within, you need to read Desiderata. 'God give me the courage to accept the things I cannot change'. It's not an autocracy/totalitarian regime there, lesser, they can bring change about.

You think the Patriot Act in America was constitutional? This is reality, lesser, not an ideal utopian world.

This is not something characteristic to democracy only. Native Lithuanians who wish their state stop being lawless should also criticize such practices.


If Lithuanian were given back their property and Poles otherwise, there is nothing to think about. Quite shocking example of ethic discrimination.


This would be practical in Turkmenistan. Lithuania, these are completely different circumstances. Their goal can be obtained quite quickly.


I understand that you would tolerate your own state being lawless. I'm not so tolerant as far as pathologies in Poland are concentrated. The least you can do is to criticize everything what is wrong.

This is impossible for any state to become ideal but its citizens should never stop to push developments in this direction. This is the only respect deserving attitude of a citizen in a state which is not totalitarian.

On the first point, how do you know that they don't, lesser? If it was so 'lawless', as you put it, there would be much more international condemnation.

Property is so hard to adjudicate, lesser. Why do you think that an international property court hasn't heard any cases related to the property rights of Jews? It would open Pandora's Box (a can of worms), that's why. International relations would suffer.

Well, petition the Lithuanian government then, lesser.

I agree on your last point which is why we need to use our democratic rights to the max and not have everything diluted.

I think you are not aware of situation in Lithuania, government its deliberative discriminating against Poles .

For example? I'm listening

Deny return of property only to Poles..
Education - Polish School in Lithuania are having constant problems and are not getting any state support.

And the Poles don't have the right to contest that in Lithuania's national courts? They have NO redress?

Well, if it's a Polish school there, why isn't Poland providing some funding? You could say the same about Polish schools in Poland ;) ;)