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Germany seeks extadition of Sobibor death camp guard.


hairball 20 | 313  
11 Mar 2009 /  #1
John Demjanjuk 88 A native of Ukraine has been charged by German prosecuters with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder.

He was originally accused of being Ivan the Terrible but was released by Israel when it turned out to be someone else.

But why is he being persued by Germany if his alleged crimes were commited on Polish soil?

Demjanjuk was extradited to Israel in 1986, when the U.S. Justice Department believed he was the sadistic Nazi guard known as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp.

news.yahoo/s/ap/20090311/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_demjanjuk
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Mar 2009 /  #2
Israelis have a long tradition of protecting murderers, it appears that lives of non-Jews hold little value in Israel, if you want to read a really messed up tale google Solomon Morel.

The responce of Israeli goverment back then was basically that "Polish people are not human" therefore they will not extradict him.
ragtime27 1 | 146  
11 Mar 2009 /  #3
Israel saying;it's been long time ago and he's old and fraile,we won't extradite him.

Pathetic.......poor German the zionist scared them really well,they even prosecute crime happened outside Germany.
OP hairball 20 | 313  
14 Mar 2009 /  #4
Solomon Morel

Yes I think it's a case of typical Israeli double standards!
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
14 Mar 2009 /  #5
Someone should fly to Israel, and execute this disgusting man. Because obviously the Israeli govermnent will do nothing to aid in convicting him.
OP hairball 20 | 313  
14 Mar 2009 /  #6
execute this disgusting man

Which one?
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
14 Mar 2009 /  #7
Which one

Morel.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
14 Mar 2009 /  #8
The response of Israeli government back then was basically that "Polish people are not human" therefore they will not extradict him.

Well sure...Also, the Jews hate the Ukrainians...This Demjanjuk is an old man, worked in an auto factory for many years...His case was already thrown out by the Israeli Supreme Court when they dragged him over there the first time...They are just getting really desperate with this 'holocaust' because they know the world is tired of the story, and is tired of Israel...Very tired...Some would say sick and tired...What is also galling is that Germany allows itself to used as a 'middle man' in these affairs...However, at least for the present, the Jews run Germany.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897  
15 Mar 2009 /  #9
But why is he being persued by Germany if his alleged crimes were commited on Polish soil?

That might be the reason:

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/13/germany-nazi-trial-demjanjuk

...
Immediately after the debacle in Jerusalem, it would have been unthinkable for the then-West German authorities to seek to try Demjanjuk. Then, for as long as Demjanjuk's case was grinding through the US courts they had to hold off. It might be thought that after so long, when the suspect is 88 years old and far from well, the Germans would have relented.
But one former war crimes investigator told me that the German Federal Office for the Prosecution of Nazi Crimes, at Ludwigsberg, needs at least one case a year to remind people that it still exists and to give itself a raison d'etre....

Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #10
Israelis have a long tradition of protecting murderers, it appears that lives of non-Jews hold little value in Israel, if you want to read a really messed up tale google Solomon Morel.

Israel saying;it's been long time ago and he's old and fraile,we won't extradite him.

As opposed to a certain country which had in their possession a man who had been a deputy commander of the same camp as Morel, who then became commander of another concentration camp and who at that camp set fire to one of the barracks, ordered guards to fire on the inmates trying to put out the flames and personally shot people trying to escape the flames or had them flung back inside (48 people lost their lives in that incident alone). A man who ordered an inmate to be sealed in a barrel in which nails had been hammered through the side: the barrel was then rolled around the camp until the victim bled to death. A man who ordered inmates to lie on top of each other forming a huge pyramid, until those at the bottom were crushed. A man responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians.

What should happen to a man like that? Unbelievably, his trial was cancelled because of his ill health. His name was Czesław Gęborski and the country which didn't think he should be tried was Poland. And yes I do mean post-communist Poland.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/1376828/Polish-man-accused-of-war-crimes-against-the-Germans.html

Someone should fly to Israel, and execute this disgusting man.

A brilliant plan and one which really shows your intelligence to the full.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
16 Mar 2009 /  #11
First of all, Morel died two years ago in Israel.

Israel has a standard policy - no Jew can be a war criminal. Full stop. It is antisemitic to even suggest that.

Demianiuk has been shown to have lied about his past. He was exonorated of being the Ivan but he certainly was at Sobibor.

What should happen to a man like that? Unbelievably, his trial was cancelled because of his ill health. His name was Czesław Gęborski and the country which didn't think he should be tried was Poland. And yes I do mean post-communist Poland.

No Stalinist murderer has been prosecuted yet. None. The case of Gęborski was during the ex-neo-communist Kwasniewski's reign. You are still trying to grasp post-communist politics in relation to the myths you have believed, huh?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Mar 2009 /  #12
Israel has a standard policy - no Jew can be a war criminal.

Oh Morel was not a war criminal, his crimes constituted "crimes against humanity" which Israel rebuffed making it out that killed Polish women and children are not human since killing them is not such a crime.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
16 Mar 2009 /  #13
The Lithuanians wanted to question Arad of Yad Vashem recently. They went apeshit :)
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
16 Mar 2009 /  #14
Israelis have a long tradition of protecting murderers

few days ago i heard on the radio about jewish lawyers defending nazis after the 2WW. interesting but kinda sick. imo.
Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #15
Israel rebuffed making it out that killed Polish women and children are not human since killing them is not such a crime.

Why do you bother with such pathetic lies? Israel refused extradition because they judged the evidence insufficient to support the charges and because Morel was in ill health. Poland halted the trial of Gęborski solely because he was in ill health.

And you're lying about the nationality of the people Morel killed too. Pathetic.

Israel has a standard policy - no Jew can be a war criminal. Full stop. It is antisemitic to even suggest that.

So the Jews Israel prosecuted in the 1950s for collaboration with the Nazis were not Jews?

No Stalinist murderer has been prosecuted yet. None.

Actually prosecutions against some were started but no cases were allowed to finish. Sometimes the cases were dismissed because the accused was old and frail, sometimes because the accused simply didn't bother to turn up at court.

And by complete coincidence, Poland has only requested extradition of Jewish Stalinist murderers

The case of Gęborski was during the ex-neo-communist Kwasniewski's reign.

Of course there was no way he could have been tried between 1989 and 1995.

jewish lawyers defending nazis after the 2WW.

Everybody deserves a fair trial (an element of which is a good defense lawyer). Fair trials are something which separate civilised people from the likes of Nazis etc.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Mar 2009 /  #16
Harry is absolutely spot on here. The difference needs to be drawn between the modern regime and the old ones. The pendulum has swung in favour of a highly protectionist position. The express policy of the Knesset Kadima party has been to, at all costs, avoid capture. Look at the hoo-haa at the moment over Shalit. They all want him back and they aren't gonna budge until his safe return has been ensured.

However, this has also explained the acts of cowardice of the IDF. Harry, you must agree in your heart of hearts. They'd rather spill Palestinian blood by sloppy and reckless killing than sacrifice Israeli life through capture. The Shin Bet runs the risk of capture on the ground. Hamas are being tipped off left, right and centre and this is a fact. There are informants and whistle-blowers everywhere.

Harry is also right about what is called declinature. This postulates that a judge cannot hear a case that he has a vested interest in. Regardless of the merits of the legal system in question, an emotional involvement is simply not gonna constitute sth fair. Impartiality must be sought to the maximum extent possible lest we run the risk of erroneous outcomes.
sledz 23 | 2,250  
16 Mar 2009 /  #17
John Demjanjuk 88 A native of Ukraine

I remember this guy from years ago, he was hiding out in Cleveland.
Good, Im glad they finally got the bastard, but what can you really do to the old man now?

Too bad they didnt catch him while he was younger
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Mar 2009 /  #18
Sums it up nicely, Sledz. He is likely close to death now so why punish him? A classic case of 'too little, too late'.

The man was a bastard but leave him alone now. The chance was missed.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897  
16 Mar 2009 /  #19
Too bad they didnt catch him while he was younger

Erm...they did "catch" him!
He got actually trialed in Israel already...they now don't want him again, the US don't want him...says enough I think...

nizkor.org/hweb/people/d/demjanjuk-john/israeli-data/demjanjuk-s1-2.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Mar 2009 /  #20
Yeah, he needs to play possum and they are clearly playing pointless cat n mouse.

Konnichi ha BB-san
Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #22
Maybe we should PM each other

That would probably be a good idea. I'd quite like to see answers from Sokrates and 1Jola to the questions about their lies.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Mar 2009 /  #23
And how about your comments, Harry? You have written nothing in response to post 16 above.
Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #24
You have written nothing in response to post 16 above.

I don't see any questions there. I also see nothing other than things to agree with.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Mar 2009 /  #25
Hairball raised the issue of territorial jurisdiction. I had a classic example at university. If a Swede kills a Bulgar in Mexico, which court should try him?

Sokrates has a point in that Israel cleverly masks its paedophile rings and killers. They are very suit me suit me.

Jola wrote that no Jews can be war criminals. Well, there may be a point there too.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Mar 2009 /  #26
Israels reponsce to the first request was that evidence is insufficient, evidence constituting of hundreds of accounts of survivors who saw Morel kill and torture and recognized him years after was turned down as insufficient which was an obvious lie of the kind you spout here.

The second was that Morels crime did not constitute a breach of Israels law in regards to crimes against humanity, as for victims, the primary victims of Morels murders were Home Army Poles whom he killed accusing them of working with the Nazi regime, being chief of prison he knew perfectly well who they are and that they are innocents, he also murdered German women and children though they were a minority.
Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #27
Israels reponsce to the first request was that evidence is insufficient

Lie. The response to the first request was that under Israeli law, the crimes of which Morel was accused had lapsed under the statute of limitations.

ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=71&search=10599

hundreds of accounts of survivors

. Another lie.

The second was that Morels crime did not constitute a breach of Israels law in regards to crimes against humanity,

Complete and utter lie. Read the official response of Israel for yourself.
www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=25
www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=26
www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=27

as for victims, the primary victims of Morels murders were Home Army Poles whom he killed accusing them of working with the Nazi regime

Yet another lie. The IPN says "The Poles included primarily members of independence organisations: the Home Army and the National Armed Forces. According to the statistics, there were only a few such people in the Świętochłowice camp."

ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=71&search=10599

being chief of prison he knew perfectly well who they are and that they are innocents

And another lie. "The Świętochłowice camp was governed by people who were ignorant of the nationality problem in Upper Silesia. This is illustrated by Morel's surprise at being told that in the camp there was the father of an officer who used to fight in the German army, but deserted during the Battle of Lenino and became a solider in the Polish Army. Morel arranged his release - he was in Group II on the Volksliste." ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=en&dzial=2&id=71&search=10599#_ftn10

I notice that you have nothing to say about Gęborski and how the government of Poland decided to let him off scot-free.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
16 Mar 2009 /  #28
Israel has a standard policy - no Jew can be a war criminal. Full stop. It is antisemitic to even suggest that.

Oy !!!1
Harry  
16 Mar 2009 /  #29
Israel has a standard policy - no Jew can be a war criminal. Full stop. It is antisemitic to even suggest that.
Oy !!!1

And of course Poland also has a standard policy: no Pole can be a war criminal. It is anti-Polish to even suggest that. Any war crimes which might appear to have been committed by Poles are either a Soviet fabrication or were actually committed by Jews.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
16 Mar 2009 /  #30
I have a suggestion, Harry...There is already a Jewish Autonous Republic in Russia...Here:

JAO

JAO: Very beautiful country...

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