Donald Tusk - the worst PM of 3rd RP.

Half a year on, has he done anything more?

The answer is still,
no...

Just as I thought. I'd like to interview him, just casually to see some of his views.

He normalized relations with Germany and to some extent Russia, brought back the abroad view of Poland as responsible democracy.


Nothing of note, the point is what they havent done, Kaczyńscy aggravated international relations with virtually everyone around, made Poland a laughing stock of Europe and ****** us up with the missile shield completely destroying the negotionation process so yes Tusks cabinet is MUCH better mainly because of not being so horribly inept.


Read above, make no mistake, Tusks goverment is bad but its a lesser of two evils, they're bad mainly through inactivity whereas PiS actively destroyed our international relations.

normalised relations with Germany (hmm - gained nothing in the process)
Germany does not treat Poland as a partner
if it would there would not be the whole issue with the Nord Stream
the route passing by Ukraine and Bieloruossia is available (Latvia, Lithuania, Poland) and could be as much as 10 times cheaper to use. Both Latvia and Lithuania are EU members and pressure can be put on them by the EU if there is any trouble. Then again i think they would actually agree not to have any connection to new pipeline on their own territory (probably would be happy if there was a backward connection from Poland in place)

Germany is siding with Russia on this issue (accepting Russian desire to forward their policies against Baltic states, Bieloroussia, Ukraine and finally Poland) completely ignoring the interests and energetic safety of Poland.

All this German historic policies is just a tool to convince their own nation that they are entitled to have their policies against any interests of their neighbours.

(Hardly any partnership in here - many presume that German elites treat Poland as a quasi-colony and actively seek to discredit or block any more independent Polish policies)

to [b]very little [/b]extent with Russia - speaking economically
words are empty most of the time
last example - the issue of RosUkrEnergo being chucked out of the gas transit through Ukraine and Poland not receiving the part of the gas it contracted through the company (one fourth of the gas supplied to Poland before the gas crisis). There can be no reserves in Poland before next winter and Russians wish to use it to make us sign a bigger contract that makes construction of pipeline from Denmark or/and liquid gas port obsolete - meaning we should rely only on Russiand supplies

responsible democracy - wow (you mean standing in the line, not causing trouble to the big fish)

to me being laughing stock as long as my interests are defended is somewhat irrelevant (you can laugh at me all along as long as you pay me my say salary, dowry whatever)

Tusk government is terribly inept - the whole issue (or some considerable deal of it) with the 'opcje walutowe' could have been avoided had there been an act demanding the banks to warn companies of the risks involved.

Poland lost an opportunity to sell the CO2 emission rights to Japan cause the Ministry of the Environment could not prepare an act that would regulate who is dealing with the money in time. (Now it's Ukraine in the business)

The government does not want to deal with the issue of 'opcje walutowe' (it's siding with the banks this way) - some legal arrangements could have been made to stop the banks from executing the debts involved in an instant and demanding them (the banks) to negotiate ways of paying these sums) - a good handful of companies has already went bankrupt because of the government inaction - and poeple are loosing jobs

Shipbuilding industry has been deliberately destroyed it seems - while the EU has demanded the return of state financial aid to the industry in Poland, Germany was bailing out its own with hundreds of milions of Euros (last summer - Rostock or Wismar or maybe both). Poland has not made much of an effort to protect the shipbuilding industry (this is hundred tousands of workplaces involved - not just the dock thing - engines, machinery and quite a lot of electronic stuff were built in Poland - now it looks like it is all gone).

The time we had to do anything to avert this has been used to figure out how some individuals from the ruling party could benefit from the closures (Misiak case). What i think this is just the tip of the iceberg.

But lost nothing as well, if Kaczyński continued his policy of antagonizing Germany would become a serious opponent of Poland, we dont want overly negative sentiments in Germany for no reason since they're a crucial economical and political partner, like it or not few things happen in Europe without Germany and its going to be like it for a few more years.


That disagreement comes from Germany seeing significant economic issues while being blind to long term catastrophic results of this pipeline, but as Germany sees it we're simply refusing for the sake of it, Germans do not have a grasp of Eastern politics and Russian policies.

Germany is our partner as in it works with us in many fields, it doesnt mean it will immidietaly concede to any of our demands, thats what diplomacy is for.


No, i mean not asserting our power and leverage over petty issues like Kaczyńscy and PiS did.


What interests did Kaczyńscy defend? They caused the russian meat embargo, they've alienated Poland from its Western partners and they destroyed any perspective of gains from the missile shield by being ready to actualy pay for its installation.

I'm sorry but they never defended our interests, they damaged them.

As for "currency options" the goverment is in the wrong, i absolutely agree, as for the dockyards though we did not have much choice though i think we should defy EU at any cost over this issue.

I do agree that Tusks goverment is incompetent but branding it "the worst" is simply wrong, Kaczyńscy were a much much worse option while SLD was simply criminal in its excerise of power.

PiS complicated the position of Poland in Europe. They were perceived as the 'awkward partner' in European affairs. The basic ideological dig came from the twins, harbouring/bearing old grudges from the past. What, and France didn't way back? They even signed the EEC agreement as early as 1957 despite having their ranks decimated during WWII. They understood that Hitler was a madman and moved on, they got over it.

47 years later, Poland signed to join the EU. Still the barking went on. Kohl and Mitterand had patched up many things and the party shouldn't have been spoiled.

sorry what caused the Russian meat embargo? - it was introduced in November 2005 before any moves have been made by Kaczynskis or anything said about mutual relations. Just a malicious way to fight those in a way.

Seems Russians saw Kaczynskis as some threat before they have done anything. It was Russia who was aggressive. The only argument Russian gov take into consideration is a policy of accomplished facts. You can still see it now. (Symbolic opening for Polish meat). That is why Kaczynskis blocked UE-Russia talks. And btw they were trying to achieve something for the benefit of all EU members - opening of the Russian energy industry/sector to foreign investment (Eureopean) - meaning symetry as Russian energy companies are allowed to invest in Europe

You are overrating the shield thing importance to the US security. It has been pressed by fromer US administration for the military complex to profit in my opinion. I'm sure I am not alone with such views. So the US will live with or without it. It is not a vital issue to the US. And the question is do we want the US military presence in Poland or we don't care and can jeopardy the thing for some bargains. Tusk was well willing to jeopardy the talks already. Not mentioning the goal. Georgian affair changed things.

It is not economic issues why Germany is pressing the construction of the Nord Stream. If it were economic issues the construction would be underway in Latvia, Lithuania or even already in Poland - it is much easier(and much cheaper) to lay a pipeline on the dry land that on the sea bottom.

You are actually making idiots out of Germans. They have enough grasp of what Russia needs Nord Stream for. They are cooperating with Russia in not allowing Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. this is pacting with the devil

Could you give an example of Kaczynskis showing off muscles on petty issues with Germany?

Again they are not (Germany) our political partner. They would love to see us as their political client. Polish political intersts are in collision with what Germany has put as their political goals and means to achieve them. (I am talking of German political (financial) elites not a nation as a whole. Though they have already had succes with antagonising German nation against Poland (recent)) You just take empty words too seriously Partnerschaft, Partnerschaft, Partnerscheiss. If someone ignores you vital interests, acts against them to forward his own agenda he is not your partner.

btw If Germany were to become hostile to Poland they are actually destroying the foundations of the EU and it would get to their back pretty soon.

German policies are clearly against Polish interests, and they cynically conduct them with empty phrases in their mouth for the audience. Should we be nice and act as if it was all so friendly???

Kaczynskis have defended Polish interests - inform yourself on Lisbon treaty negotiations. They have bargained quite a deal.

We don't demand anything from Germany except partnership. We just don't get there.
Germany did not solve the problem of compensation to expelees - expelees present their demands to Polish state - should we compensate the German expelees? Is it a decent way to settle things between nations?

Btw I haven't branded Tusk government the worst one. But I do think it is quite harmful to the country.

And also you could have not been aware of this - before we joined the EU we were for almost 11 years in asymetrical economic relations with the EU. where there were no border taxes on EU products while what Poland had a ready surplus of or could readily develope (foods) was heavily taxed on EU borders. (układ stowarzyszeniowy z UE).

Then the EU has mercifuly let us in. (Polish farmers get just 25 per cent of direct support the old EU farmers get - in case you don't know why many are on the verge of bankruptcy)

Well, they defended the Polish corner quite well but to an obstinate level, running against the spirit of negotiations. There has to be some sacrifice and compromise in the EU. Such intransigence had rarely been witnessed before but it was funny to see the Lisbon Treaty stymied.

Yeah...you always demand and expect...only!

You get so much support from the Germans....without Germany you wouldn't even in the EU...most of the financial support going Polands way during the next years is german money..

And what do you offer?
Not much more but pettiness, old grudges, suspicion!
And of course every german decision can only be anti-polish, right? Every german politician just thinks about how to be mean to the Poles, day in day out...nothing else matters for the german gov, ja?

Sorry how Poles should be not suspicious if you deal with Russians against us? What is the purpose of building a submarine pipeline if the land option could be 10 times cheaper? Whom could it benefit? Why do Germans want Poland out of the way of the pipeline?

I am saying German elites treat Poland as an obstacle not a partner. And German politicians play fools. What old grugdes do you see raised by Poland that are not in self-defence? When there is an idiotic claim made that voting power in the EU based linearly on population is more democratic to the benefit of the Germano-Franco-Italian triangle where a will of four major European countries can hardly be overruled. is this a democratic club? Should Poland hush then? And submit?

You probably don't know that but we have paid enough for your support. 11 years of asymetry in trade relations.

Btw what you write is a regular blab - not much factual in it.
I need to quote someone - Mr Poettering - he said 2 years ago on TV (in Germany) - that the help (structural funds) for the new countries amounts to 26 euro per Old European citizen yearly.

(and as far as I know (for various reasons - some serious fault on the side of the present Polish government included) Poland is a netto payer to the EU at the moment)

German historic policies is a matter of decency. I don't think we (Poles) should bother. Only if you haven't got decency enough to put things in the right perspective, should we accent our views of history in some clearly visible way.

And you are playing fool too, trying to ridicule serious questions.

'What do you offer' - you have a country to invest - soon there won't be any obstacles to buy land for EU based foreingers. Large chunks of land in the western Poland (where I live) are already in German hands anyways (through Polish 'treuhands') - compare Polish capital to German capital (I guess Germans could easily buy up 10 per cent of Polish land right away if not more)

Because it isn't a deal "against" Poland?
WHY THE HELL SHOULD GERMANY DOING SUCH A THING???
Why did we promote you into the EU and in the NATO???

The pipeline is only one of the projects to diversify our energy net...we need alot of energy and we need even more in the coming years....The fight for energy hasn't even geared up now but it will soon.

Poland was offered a partnership and even branches from the pipeline to Poland proper...but all you could do was decline, humpf and grumble about a second Molotov-Ribbentrop pact because it can't be anything else, can't it!

Grow up man!
Poland isn't the center of the universe and not all around you only dream of punching you!


How horrible!
Nobody forces you to pay german products and I'm sure when Poland comes up with a nice idea Germans will buy it happily too...that's how the market works...no german conspiracy here!


And???
What about the Poles who buy land and invest into Eastern Germany???

Face it...the border region was always heavily mixed and with Germans over yours in Poland and Poles over here in Germany the natural way as it was for millennia just comes back...

Where is the problem?

What about that one thousand and a couple more Poles who have bought homes!!! next to Polish border (not agricultural land which is definitely more expensive on the German side)

what about those tens of thousands of Germans who buy up businesses and agricultural land in pre-war German areas - just a capital disproportion thing - Germans benefit much more from this opening

get things in proportion

the market does not work if you have say 50 per cent border tax on food (grain, milk, fruit, vegs etc etc) and many others actually (furniture if I remember well) so that your farmers and your industries are protected from any competition from Poland (actually there were more taxes or imports were banned on some products). At the same time Polish market was almost completely open to German (and other European) imports. Good deal for 11 years - we have payed enough for your support. Thank you for your mercy for letting us in at last. (This was sort of waiting room - with paid seats :P)

(You wait, you will join, sometime, for now we will have your own market penetrated, just wait - we have waited for 11 years) (I seem to eventually think that you had no choice but let us in after those 11 years - who else would then bother to wait - and there was still a bunch to have their markets penetrated)

you seem quite apt at evading difficult questions (just as your politicians do)

why then is not the pipeline not on land through Poland (are you suspicious towards Poland - and why so then) but on the Baltic bottom - which is as much as 10 times more expensive?

would the gas from a land pipeline render the supply any less diversed (btw it is interesting how you call relying on one country for supplies diversification)

Poland can be better off with a new pipeline on its soil (transit fees) why should we support a project that deprives us of any income. A partnership in stripping itself of possible income hehe :) cynically German as usual

Poland is not a center of the Universe but still some would like to see it beaten up, on her knees and voiceless.

Sometimes at least try to see things from different perspective. I'm pretty sure you never do.

Evading questions??? Am I here for discussion or not?

It rather seems you just don't like the rational reasoning and prefer your Bad-Germany-against-innocent-naive-Poland conspiracy theories!


I doubt you ever tried to see things from the german perspective or you wouldn't spout such nonsense!

No, it is NOT a german takeover of Poland!


WHAT IF ONLY ONE COUNTRY OWNS NEARLY ALL OF THESE ENERGY RESOURCES???

What can Poland offer Germany instead?

Oh and Germany is also supporting South Stream which is if I remember it right outside of Russia at all...


Well...you didn't had to..nobody was forcing you!
Maybe you would be better off all alone for yourself?


Why is Poland so keen on it? Could it be you are going to miss the transition fee?
Or that you with this pipeline would have a leverage if the Germans wouldn't behave accordingly to polish wishes?


Oooh puuuleeeeeze...the eternal victim! *yawn*

You better get rid of this paranoia of yours or you will feel never at home in the new, unified Europe!

South Stream is equally Russian initiative

competing Nabucco project has got some symbolic support from the EU recently

is it wrong for Poland to want to profit from transit while it still is much cheaper option

Is that so....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_Pipeline


Some symbolic money...remind me again, how much is Poland paying for it?

nabucco-pipeline.com/company/shareholders7/rwe-ag/rwe-ag.html

German RWE is even shareholder in the Nabucco project...how about a polish firm?


Erm...maybe I got it wrong...but the Nord Stream pipeline will be an additional source of energy, not replacing the ones already there...aren't you getting enough transit fees yet?

this assignation can well be fake, so as to say we tried (and the money can be pulled back)

usak.org.tr/EN/makale.asp?id=889

btw the project has been frozen for quite some time

Do you know that Germany and the EU will pay Millions to help Ukraine to get their pipeline infrastructure back in order? (Something they just can't afford).

rferl.org/content/EU_Ukraine_Pipeline_Agreement_Piques_Moscow/1516786.html

What is Poland going to do to help?

You see...you are mostly seen as "demander", "complainer", "chest beater"...but when work and money is needed Poland has not much to offer...maybe we just differ about what "partnership" means!

Take your germanophobic conspiracy theories elsewhere!


Is that so...

nabucco-pipeline.com/project/project-timeline/main-page-project-timeline-20090126.html

ok calling names fine you won

Any links to that?
Where do you get this info from?

Gumishu how about you cut to the chase and tell us whats your point?

my point German policies do not treat Poland as a partner. and that's it. Some points were what the Germans have gained from Poland recently.

the info is from my area

most of the quarries in South Western Poland belong to German capital at the moment for example

you just don't read about it in the newspapers
definitely not German ones

Thats free market for you.


Thats it isnt it?:) So could you please tell me why didnt they appoint Steinbach?

Nord Stream is a damn political thing and that's it. It suits Russian imperialistic doctrines. That Germans suit the Russians in this case is a price for the involvement of German business in Russian energy industry and perhaps other industries as well. (All in Russia is somehow state controlled - even those Russian millionaires). I never ever stated that Nord Stream is somehow maliciously anti Polish on the German side. But it is not a partnership attitude either.

And I somehow am curious if Germans would build this thing just to take the transit fees from Poland - cause it's what I have felt in Bratwurst's tone - haven't you got enough transit fees?? - boy I bet the gas from a land route would be cheaper than the one from the submarine pipeline even after all transit fees included (calculating all interests that have paid back for the huge construction cost of the submarine one)

Germans get somehow obssessed with Poland hehe so I wouldn't be surprised.

I just hope the thing never gets built for this or any other reason.

Some links to that?

So all the support and money you get from Germany counts for nothing the moment Germany dares to have a different opinion than you? Is that "partnership" for you?

All THE LINKS I BROUGHT show clearly that Germany invests heavily in energy diversity...not only Nord Stream but Ukraine and Nabucco and several others....but Poland does nothing, just screaming and throwing tantrums...nice "partnership"!

No...you are right...we can't call it partnership, but it's not the Germans fault!


And why not? You should be able to bring polish news at least, shouldn't you?

But....wait...it's surely a conspiracy of the Germans...they bought the polish elites, ja?


Yeah...we can't sleep because we only think about how to get at you next!

Don't forget your paranoia meds...

Don't tell me...when Poland plays Germany in Football you think it's a rerun of the Battle of Grunwald!

i see you are not serious

you constantly try to ridicule my views

you consider me anti German cause i'm suspicious toward German policies

yes some members of Polish elites (on various levels) are in German service
(publicists who work for EU or directly German sponsored institutions)
the one name I recall is Ryszard Schnepf.
there are also the ones who worked for Stasi (they have never been exposed, Poland has not received dossiers of Polish Stasi colaborators to my knowlegde)

...but I try so hard not to...honestly...


I consider you anti-german because you are resistent to facts which show otherwise.
Instead of an open discussion you just repeat some odd statements without any background or statistics or articles whatsoever...that has nothing to do with factual differences but everything with anti-german conspiracy theories...


You don't happen to have a link or anything to support your statement?

And I think some Poles work in Germany too...

as for Ukraine - EU invests in German companies (ok EU companies but it's the Germans who have the most capable businesses to do the job) and there is a speculation EU (German?) operators would operate (well share the profits) the refurbished network in Ukraine. btw isn't that European bank not a German financial institution that is supposed to fund Nabucco.

Poland does nothing - what are we supposed to do - build a pipeline stretch to Latvia and wait for ever for the Russians to connect to it??? should we build Nord Stream against our own best interests? does Poland have 2 bilion spare euros to refurbish Ukrainian pipeline network? I have heard of some Polish projects or at least ideas in the field of energy that have been simply ignored by the EU and not necessarily in the field of gas pipelines.

Not assuming the worst of your economical, political and military partner whenever they happen to have a different opinion than you?

which one - Russians? hehe partner? who has put an embargo on Polish meat on some bloody faint excuse (of course for political reasons) then on the fruit and veg (for some faint excuse again) Russian policy toward Poland is clearly malicious.

I don't say German is (but it is not a very friendly policy). My opinion German elites are bent on hegemony in Europe through mostly economical and political means. And they will be more than happy if they get rid of Americans from the continent someday eventually.

btw there are hoardes of former (this is not an apropriate name 'former' - there are no former Russian agents) Russian agents or Russian-'overtaken' Polish SB-colarborators in Poland. Some where even in power for quite some time. This was actually the main obstacle for Poland to get into NATO in American eyes.