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Anti-spanking law in Poland?


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
2 Jun 2008 /  #31
In Scotland, our test is, or was, reasonable chastisement. Proportionality must enter the equation too. For example, slapping a child's posterior til it's red raw for clumsily knocking a glass of, say, red wine or blackcurrant juice is an exaggerated response.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
2 Jun 2008 /  #32
I was punished by the 'belt or slipper' at home and the cain, ruler or strap at school, I'm not a violent person as a result of the above punishment, I certainly do not think I was abused and I dont see anything wrong in smacking a child - as Mr W said

When a spanking is the result of the parent's frustration. It's wrong. When it is a considered response. It might be justified.

z_darius 14 | 3,968  
2 Jun 2008 /  #33
I certainly do not think I was abused and I dont see anything wrong in smacking a child

Agreed. Nothing wrong with mild spanking if the kid is way too spunky.
PinkJewel  
2 Jun 2008 /  #34
I would never have said I was abused either. I got a smack on the hands or the backside if I did something wrong, not out of my parents frustration. My parents never beat me up, that would have been frustration. In fact, my sister and I were only ever smacked by my Mother, never my Father.

There is a difference between a light smack on the hands when you reach for that cake your Mother already told you not to touch and smashing your kid so hard they cry and there is a bruise left.

I find it odd that people would assume that a light smack on the hands is abuse. Abuse is beating your kid up and no law will stop the people who are going to do that from doing that, those who will beat their kids will do it. There is something violent in them. There is something wrong with them and a 'law' won't change that.

A girl in my class at school would get slapped hard across the face by her Mother if she gave some cheek to her, that's assault. Her Mother thought it was discipline. So there is a fine line.
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 Jun 2008 /  #35
Raczynski noticed that while in Poland he had never received any physical punishment,in german school the teachers routinely beat the pupils for discipline.
This caused to him deep impression since Germany was supposed to be far more civilized than Poland.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 Jun 2008 /  #36
IMO this law should be universal. Children taught to respect begin's at home. If a child is not going to listen out of respect, spanking will not help. They will just sneak and do the negitive behavior.

I know first hand the damage to children as I opened my home to abused children. Treatment Care is the last resort for children before institutions. Spanking children destroys self esteem and the same children that are spanked, end up abusing and in abusive relationships.

If anyone watches Nanny 911, she never hits, she demands respect and sets limits. Most often it's not the children that have to change, it's the care givers.
djf 18 | 166  
2 Jun 2008 /  #37
Spanking children destroys self esteem and the same children that are spanked, end up abusing and in abusive relationships

What a pile of cr@p!!! That is one of the worst generalisations ever made! Never in my life have i read such an utterly stupid comment, and ive read most of michal's posts.
PinkJewel  
2 Jun 2008 /  #38
celinski:
Spanking children destroys self esteem and the same children that are spanked, end up abusing and in abusive relationships

What a pile of cr@p!!! That is one of the worst generalisations ever made! Never in my life have i read such an utterly stupid comment, and ive read most of michal's posts.

I agree, it's an odd post to make. There is a difference between a smack on the bottom and abuse. A huge difference. In school in the UK kids were given the ruler or the belt for misbehaving in class up until 30 odd years ago. That's far more serious that spanking your kids backside or tapping them on the hand.

The kids you take in Celinski, are not the result of a smack on the bottom but something more serious and no, it doesn't start with a smack and lead to abuse, sometimes it will but most often not. Much respect to you for helping abused kids though.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 Jun 2008 /  #39
What a pile of cr@p!!!

Studies in the USA prove this. This is why our state workers go from one generation to the next. Intervention breaks this cycle in many cases. Or did you think spanking would built a stronger bond and a strong sense of self worth?

IMO many care givers use spanking not to correct the negitive behavior but they are angry and this is how they react.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
2 Jun 2008 /  #40
Studies in the USA prove this.

Then it must be true!

A slap across the legs never hurt anyone!
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384  
2 Jun 2008 /  #41
In school in the UK kids were given the ruler or the belt for misbehaving in class up until 30 odd years ago

A bamboo cane and up to six whacks on the palm of the hand or backside
A leather strap. The type a barber would use to sharpen a razor. [thirty or so years ago]
Two 12" rulers taped together, but with a thin piece of metal running down the centre, to keep the device rigid.
The slipper. These days it would be a trainer/tennis shoe.

Often used to humiliate rather than anything else.

There was an unwritten code. If a pupil was reduced to tears after punishent, the rest of the class would look the other way.

Did it work ? For a short time, yes. It helped to concentrate the mind !
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
2 Jun 2008 /  #42
Wroclaw

That's pretty barbaric. That kind of think was illegal in Poland more than 30 years ago.

Spanking by parents might be another matter though.
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 Jun 2008 /  #43
Spanking children destroys self esteem and the same children that are spanked, end up abusing and in abusive relationships.

This is true.Basically it leads to behaviour stuck in anal stage and lot of control.
Mothers and fathers spank in same frequency with mothers spanking more in the first year.Also mother's boyfriend and mothers in law tend to abuse often.

Children who get abused are more isolated,prefer staying alone,do not make eye contact and tend to attack other children.Some end with antisocial personality disorder.More serious is the sexual abuse.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
2 Jun 2008 /  #44
PinkJewel:
In school in the UK kids were given the ruler or the belt for misbehaving in class up until 30 odd years ago

I bloody wish, I got the strap at school and the cane and I can tell you it was a lot less than 30 years ago when I was at school!

I think it was in about 1985 when corporal punishment was abolished...I actually preferred the strap to dentension....
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 Jun 2008 /  #45
The most famous punishment spankings are
1.The british
2.The german
3.The russian
I do not think any other folk has reached a similar proficiency or mastery in discipline.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
2 Jun 2008 /  #46
I was smacked a couple of times when I was young and it never did me any harm.

Ooh! Beat me! Beat me! I've been so naughty!
Shawn_H  
2 Jun 2008 /  #47
it never did me any harm

Obviously never did you any good, either.

:-)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 Jun 2008 /  #48
it never did me any harm.

Look again, it turned you into a donkey.
polishgirltx  
2 Jun 2008 /  #49
Anti-spanking law in Poland?

what?? no more spanking in PL?!?!?
.... ;)
aaahhhh.... no spanking children....ups!
i say 'no' to that.... there are other ways to solve some problems...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
2 Jun 2008 /  #50
The idea is the same, it says a lot about morality when one country permits it and the other forbades. It also raises the important issue of why did they U-turn? Was it based on research or simply a change of heart?

I know that it cuts against the grain of reasonable chastisement. Are we now in a position where those countries that permit spanking are less civilised? I don't think so.
djf 18 | 166  
3 Jun 2008 /  #51
celinski

So you are saying that no matter what i do now i will be in an abusive relationship because my parents physically disciplined me???! And every other person who was smacked as a child is going to be in one too? Sorry, but your talking cr@p.

Think you should take your 'American studies' and shove them. I have never been in a proper fight and would certainly never hurt a female.
bookratt 6 | 85  
3 Jun 2008 /  #52
Oh, wow. This one really riled me up. And I am home sick today, so I have all the time in the world to tell you why.

Someone pointed to Sweden, as if the lack of spanking in kids there means they have an ideal society, where all children are cherished and rainbows and marshmallows come out of their rears instead of poo.

Sorry.

Sweden may not have psychotic serial killer-babies running around in diapers, but Sweden DOES have serious societal issues of its own, many of those problems coming from their own youth:

nationmaster.com/country/sw-sweden/cri-crime

Swedes commit suicide more often than Americans (and Aussies and Brits) and have higher rates of extreme alcoholism, too. Is their practice of not spanking the kids creating those problems later on? Is the lack of physical discipline creating behavioral monsters?

Stupid questions, right? But since there has been no conclusive or properly scientific study done there, that shows that NOT spanking kids prevents their youth from creating the types of probems they are already having (nor has there been such a study done anywhere), I can't advocate the Swedish way.

Swedes are ranked much higher on the UN scale of total crime (meaning that across the board, more Swedish citizens are victims of crime than, say, people in the US or Austria).

nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims

Is all crime in Sweden perpetrated by non-Swedes? Some is but not all. Or by those over the age of, say, 18? Most is committed by those under age 24, I think the UN figures said. Who commits all those crimes? Who are the victims? Where, when and how does a criminal in Sweden begin their life of crime?

I also need to say this: studies in the USA do NOT prove that spanking begets abuse nor that spanked children become violent, or in turn abuse their own children. Those studies clearly differentiated between spanking and abuse--and spanking was not defined as abuse for those studies. So to say that studies have proven that spanking causes abuse in kids, is incorrect. To say that abuse causes abuse, yes. But spanking has not been proven to.

Many kids who are bullies have been spanked, that's true,. But those same kids are often exposed to severe, disabling punches, slaps, verbal abuses, even torture at home. And no one ever separated out the spanking from the torture in that study--to be able to say that kids that are spanked (versus those who are abused) are more often bullies than not.

My kid is being bullied at school nearly every day here in Poland, teased and picked on by a kid twice his age and his younger sister, who's a few years older than my kid. We have a meeting, which I asked for, at his school tomorrow. I observed and I asked and those kids do not ever get spanked. They aren't even told, when caught at it, to stop. Neither do most of the children at this school. And you should see what they're like, as a rule, as a result of that lack of discipline.

Back-talkers, pushers, shovers, tongue-sticker-outers, nasty words flung around all over the place, poking, teasing, not sharing, open defiance of bus drivers, teachers, and even their own parents. It's sickening.

Now, can you say well, they aren't spanked, so it's the lack of spanking that
is causing their bullying? No you can't. No more than you could say, if they were spanked, that it was the spanking that caused the bullying.

(I suspect it's a generalized lack of discipline in any form in that home that is at the real heart of this; that and some anger at their upheaval to be here in the first place and also, perhaps, the constant absence of one parent and maybe too much money thrown at them to "make them behave").

A recent study, not longitudinal, not repeated and widely criticized, says that kids who were spanked often have sexual dysfunctions as young adults or are more likely to coerce sex from their current sexual partners. It is being criticized because they surveyed college students already engaging in the noted behaviors/having the problems, and relied on the students (who were paid to be in the study and many of whom were enrolled as students in the department in which the study came from, ie: were dependent for their grades on the professors asking the questions) to self-report. Ie: the professors asked the students face to face certain questions and expected the kids to respond honestly and openly about spanking done to them as children, which in some cases, took place decades before being asked to answer the questions.

They did not look into childhood sexual abuse in the kids who reported having engaged in these behaviors (which many experts believe is at the root of problems like these).

They did not look into their backgrounds over time, interview their parents or guardians, doctors, teachers, etc. They also did not differentiate between spanking and abuse. Nor did they verify or attempt to verify that spanking actually occured in the homes of these college kids early on in their lives, nor determine where, how, how often, etc, as the students reported that it did.

The respondents (the students answering the questionaires) included in their responses that "spanking" included abuse like punching, striking the face with a backhand slap, using objects to beat the entire body with, etc---and also included the fact that the reported "spanking" occured to them up to and over age 13.

So, I have more than few problems with that so-called scientific "study" that is really more of a survey or poll, with loaded questions and very little scientific method being applied. I'd say at best, it's anecdotal evidence--and that's if you can believe the students and their motivations for answering the questions as they did.

I don't.

Studies in the US (and around the world) show that extraordinary punishments, those that are extremely violent and abusive, and that occur frequently over time, do tend to create dysfunctional kids who go on to abuse others and their own kids in future.

We're not talking about hand slaps and butt spanks, here, we're talking about extreme cruelty to kids.

Also, I do need to point this out: I have seen a lot of virulent (and sometimes, virulent to the point of abject hysteria) posts online about being anti-spanking. The posts sometimes--surprisingly often, it seems to me, come from people who reveal, only after they've passionately defended the no-spank idea, that they themselves were horrifically abused as children and are now on a worldwide crusade to outlaw spanking and teach everyone alive the perils of spanking their kids. I can see why they would be the ones most ardently supporting the no-spank idea. I get where they are coming from.

To them, any physical discipline is too much, a bad idea, wrong, damaging, etc. I totally get that. Same thing with people who were never abused themselves, but have witnessed the effect of horrific abuse on kids they know, who now fear that telling any one it's ok to discipline their kid means that it gives parents and others the license to beat their kid unmercifully.

But their confusion over what a spanking is, versus what abuse is, and their fears should not take precedence over my need to teach my child when he gets seriously out of line, or requires more than a "now now, Johnny, don't do that". Over society's need to have productive, responsible citizens surrounding them, using their superpowers for good, not evil, instead of out- of- control wild animals with no understanding of what correct or civilizing behavior is.

We use the time outs, too, and we take away toys when he won't share them; we also do a lot of positive reinforcement, but I am telling you, some kids DO need more than that. One of your kids may be a goody-two shoes who never acts up (well, maybe not when you are watching them they don't), and another may be a tasmanian devil. Different kids require different approaches.

Someone asked, how do you define mild punishment, versus abusive punishment? Who makes that call? Isn't it better to outlaw ALL physical discipline, rather than use judgment and differentiate between the two types?

In the US our laws are clear. Social service workers, and police, teachers, doctors, firemen, etc, are all taught what abuse is (and that kind of manual, which I have seen, does NOT include spanking)

They are required by law to inform authorities when they believe abuse is occurring. So are nurses, physician assistants, dentists, day care providers, etc. They can lose their license to practice their profession for life, go to jail or pay very heavy fines, be sued in criminal or civil court, etc, if they see what they suspect could be abuse and don't do what's right.

Those laws are newer and weren't in place when we were kids. More protections exist for kids now than ever before. Fewer people are resorting to habitually spanking their kids, even once, even just a hand slap.

Some studies say 90% of Americans spank their kids. Others say that is a very misleading number, and I agree, because the most famous of those studies was a poll done over the phone and it asked one question: have you ever spanked your child? Not whether or not the person answering the question routinely or regularly did so, nor how they did so, nor did it even define the word "spanking". It was actually a survey or poll, not a study.

I was born in the US and lived there until age 40; I now live in Poland and have for almost 9 months. I have spanked my five year old and will continue to do so, as and when required. If that metters to anyone reading this or causes you to think my views stem from my background and experiences. I was spanked as a child and so was my husband.

Having seen a new generation of ever-bolder, defiant, angrier and less honest kids being born and "raised" over there, I have to wonder why no one has ever studied the LACK of spanking or the LACK of discipline on kids. If they have actually studied it, where are the results?

I again admit that studies (since about the 1970s) in the US and elsewhere ,have shown a correlation between violent, abusive and aggressive discipline and kids who later are violent and abusive themselves.

That's why pediatricians back home say that for most parents, it might be better to try other forms of discipline before resorting to physical punishment. They do not know the past home life of a parent who brings their kid in to see them for care. If they say it's okay to spank and the parent happens to be an abuser, or to have been abused as a kid, they could be legally liable for having advocated harsh disipline against the child--that they never even knew was taking place.

So I get why a few years ago, the pediatric physician's association in the US gave a statement that physical punishment is not the first recourse of a parent in disciplining their kids.

I agree with that message. But I also know how to read and think, and I understand what that message says and means.

BTW, I saw the types of things they were talking about in those studies that showed a correlation between physical punishment and later bad behavior in kids:

severe and injurious spanking with belts, and fists; forcing kids into dark closets and locking the door on them for long periods of time, sometimes days; incest or violent sexual assault used as punishment; humiliating namecalling/verbal abuse/shaming; forcing other kids in the house to torture the scapegoated child; witholding food and water, or oversalting their food and forcing them to regurgitate till they collapse; forcing them to kneel on broomsticks or plastic pvc pipes and pray for hours on end, etc.

The studies suggest that there is a correlation between the two things, abuse and later violence in kids. I tend to agree that extreme violence in childhood does make some kids violent towards others and does make some kids grow up to be abusive to their own kids.

But the same studies, IIRC, could not rule out that some of the dysfunction in the kids both present-day and as they studied them over time, came from periodic homelessness, lack of a bond since infancy with either parent, extended alcoholism or drug use in the home, verbal and physical abuse directed toward the mother figure in the house, mental disease or defect in the kids being studied, bullying directed toward the kid by other kids, learning disabilities/serious educational deficiencies that weren't addressed when young, physical disabilities which were not corrected and later caused socilaization problems, etc.

In other words, no direct correlative study that has stood up to any sort of scientific scrutiny has EVER said that normal discipline makes for warped, messed up or violent/aggressive kids.

Only that among kids who are horrifically abused, a few do go on and do that, too.

Other studies have shown that it is a combination of psychological abuse plus the physical beatings in habitually abused kids, that really makes for messed up kids, harmed for life.

I tend to agree with that one, too.

But to across the board say, that a parent who spanks risks creating a sad, depressed, violent, badly behaved kid, who can't play well with others, or is harmed for life? Are you kidding me? That's as crazy an idea as advocating never spanking your kid!

Even California, known to us in the USA as a state which has many rebels, new agers and stoners, who tend to be extremely tolerant in all things good and bad, has legislation pending that states that age-appropriate spanking in young children should not be part of a state-wide ban against abuse against children. ie: spanking kids is not abuse and will not be on the ballot listed as behavior that we need to ban.

NO state in the US has ever successfully passed legislation banning spanking. Some municipalities (towns, cities or townships) have tried, however.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384  
3 Jun 2008 /  #53
bookratt

A long post, but worth reading.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
3 Jun 2008 /  #54
bookratt

Enjoyed your post very much :)

(nice to see you posting again)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
3 Jun 2008 /  #55
That was an excellent account bookratt. Some real meaty points there and hard-hitting at times, I like it. One of the best things to come from ur post was the idea that we are too quick to make correlations between slaps in childhood and committing future crimes. The same comes from pornography studies. In countries where porn is readily available, the incidence of sexually-related assault cases is lower but we cannot attribute that solely to this factor.

U included a practical example which shows ur closeness to this issue. Sometimes u need to be an 'insider', rather than some academic musing over the matter. There is no easy solution but the benefits of reasonably chastising a child are there to see. The important thing is that the child sees that is has done wrong. This has repercussions for the future welfare of the child, which is the paramount consideration in a court of law. If a child doesn't learn discipline and to see that is has done wrong, it may start to bully later as in the case above. Not only will this cause problems for others but there will come a day when that child gets a damn good hiding himself/herself. Damage aversion is needed.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
3 Jun 2008 /  #56
Poles are generally against physical punishment of children, shows a research probe published by a national daily.

Think you should take your 'American studies' and shove them

In the same probe, most respondents said that a slap on the buttocks was acceptable and "normal". Sixty-six percent of the population were in favour of a legal ban on beating children. Meanwhile, 51% admitted that they had used physical punishment on their own offspring and 78%

said that a slap was "acceptable" punishment in opposition to 21% who were against this form of parental discipline.

Poland is in the midst of a discussion whether to ban physical
punishment of minors altogether, in the wake of a series of horrific cases of domestic violence against children. The discussion was also joined by First Lady Maria Kaczyñska, and ex-president Lech Wa³êsa, who said that he was foiled in an attempt to give a beating to his son, when the child reminded him that he held a Nobel prize for peace.

polskieradio.pl/zagranic a/news/artykul83 822_Poles_opposing_corporal_punishment. html

If a child doesn't learn discipline

This is so true, but discipline does not have to be hitting. I stand by my feeling. Discipline is changing a negitive behavior and as care givers we must learn to alter neg. behavior while instilling positive results.

My kid is being bullied at school nearly every day here in Poland, teased and picked on by a kid twice his age and his younger sister, who's a few years older than my kid.

Good luck at this meeting. I would demand this stop or bring a lawyer with you. This negitive behavior can hurt worse than physical fighting and the damage (although unseen) is just as bad, if not worse.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
3 Jun 2008 /  #57
If you want government in your home, in your private life, it means that you want fascist state.

"Everything for the State; nothing outside the State; nothing against the State," B. Mussolini
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
3 Jun 2008 /  #58
The problem with this is that u let the state determine sth that is already well established, namely behavioural patterns. If a mother has been successfully instilling discipline into her kid(s), why should she listen to what the state prescribes or proscribes? If it ain't broke, don't fix it, as the brocard/adage goes.

Life is too complicated to issue outright bans such as this
lesser 4 | 1,311  
3 Jun 2008 /  #59
Basically if such law would be established, it would be just on paper (so, please don't waste your time) unless you want turn the country into fascist kind of police state.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
3 Jun 2008 /  #60
Good point lesser. It's hard to enforce and is too much of a 'we know better' approach. Such decisions should be placed in the hands of parents, not some stuffy old goats who may never have had children.

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