Animosity between Poland vrs. Polonia?

there are more than 2 types in my opinion and you are simplifying things. You are talking about groups which are most vocal or have some characyeristics which are prominent.

I personally would not vote when I am abroad. I also think that statistics on who and how many had voted in receant elections would be helpfull in this discussion.

What is interesting for me is the fact that some people in Poland - the so callled popular voters are not better equipped to make a rational choice either.

That might have more to do with the politicians themselves and not the voters. Let's not forget the Church as well. They were telling their congregations that it was a sin to vote for PO prior to the last elections.

skoda dude, skoda. :D

Sadek, at times you offered an argument or two. With the above it's clear you are loosing a grip of what it is that really bothers you. Whatever the US did or not during and soon after WW2 had nothing to do with American Polonia. American, as well as other Polonia was certainly supportive of pre 1939 Polish borders.

It is also remarkable that you keep on stressing the American Polonia. I am not a member of the group but it still strikes me that you continually single them out. I don;t think you have a problem with Polonia but with the US government. Some members of the US Polonia support it, others don't. The same in Poland.

You are blabbing about American "sale" of Poland to commies and you somehow connect that with American Polonia. It is strange that you happilly point out the contribution of German Polonia to Poland's economy but you never made a connection of German Polonia with Germany having exterminated about 6.5 million of Polish citizens during the exact same period when the Americans were selling Poland.

As for the right to vote; I don't, others do. Those who vote, do so because it is legal. It is a law introduced and sanctioned by the government of Poland - not by Polonia anywhere in the world. If you have a problem with that, lobby your government. Leave those who abide by the law alone.

Source?

well, in that case it would not be something to advertise - would it? My father in Poland was told by their neighbours to vote for a certain party. He didn't but just for the sake of keeping peace - he said he did - that is really strange how people will try to influance others when it comes to politics. The same could have happened in small parishes in Poland.

GF's grandmother who goes to church every Sunday. This is what she was saying prior to the election. It was actually one of her arguments in favor of PiS.

that's what happens when religion is mixed with politics.
In that respect I am not sure why would Polonia members be questioned when it comes to their political choices and voting in Polish elections. Who says that one voter is better than the other? Vote is a vote.

Sounds like splitting hairs IMO.

Dirty, dirty politics:)

Well seeing as the majority in the U.S. voted for PiS, that could be one reason. I don't think they know certain political aspects like this in Poland. The Church has more influence than the parties themselves. That's not to say everyone abroad doesn't know, but the majority probably don't. They read what is in the headlines, but don't see what is actually going on in real life. PiS used the anti corruption/communist office to go after political opponents. Not really what is was designed to do. They see PiS in power and some aspects of the Polish economy getting better, but that is due more to the openness of the EU, not PiS. PiS was trying to kick out foreign banks, isolate Poland from the EU and Russia and place the Church's agenda as national policy. If your a Nationalist I guess it makes sense, but in reality that doesn't help Poland. The U.S. won't save Poland, they just want to use the country.

If somebody claim so, evidence is needed.


Neighbors are different matter.


Even if this is true, then you know what happened in one church. Your answer proofing that you have no evidence to back your statement.

What do you consider evidence? Reports in the media? Please, if you think because it is on the news it must be true, your living in a fantasy world. If you believe the Church has no influence, especially the Catholic one, your also out of touch with reality. The Catholic Church in Poland has an agenda, and PiS is their best shot at achieving that. The Catholic church has stated to their followers to not support any liberal leaning party. That party being PO.

They church tell the people to vote for unspecified parties which are not in collision with Catholic teaching. They have the full right to do so.


This is not true. Stanisław Michalkiewicz, member of the only liberal party in Poland (UPR) has audition even in Radio Maryja which don't represent church's mainstream after all.

I agree with jkn005 post 69, 71.

Yes they do. They do it in the U.S. all the time. However in Poland there is no separation of Church and State. This is why governmental offices like Customs for example have Priests, Priests in schools, both payed for by the government and attempts to enforce religious ideals on a population. I understand Poland is a predominately Catholic nation, but this gives one religion the right to shape policy by being directly and legally involved in politics. When the Church declares one party to be the one you are obligated to vote for as a Catholic, it changes the idea of being just a way of guidance. They have to much power, which in turn lets them manipulate opinion of believers. The result of the election actually shows how much the country is not Catholic.

or how the country resents the growing dominance of Catholic Church.

This is a much better way to put it.

Why have they? Rome has no say in the day to day running of Poland or it shouldnt have, whilst the Catholic church may have had its place in Polish society during communism, it doesnt anymore, things change and time moves on Poland are a member of the EU now they have more to gain by having a credible party in government and not some puppet government.

You are not Polish and clearly don't understand situation in this country and have not evidence to back your claim. Same fact that you associate PO victory to be evidence of lack of Catholicism in Poland expose your lack of understanding of broad structure of electorate of this party.


So you are saying that Michalkiewicz is not liberal or that he have not audition in RM?


So you forbid the church to spread Christian teaching?


What a hypocrisy from your side...

no, I am not because I don't know who Michalkiewicz is;)

I live in Poland. I listen to the news and I see what kind of effect PiS and their policies have on Poland. Why do I need to be Polish to understand this? Polish will gladly tell me how my country is and how our policies are. So that gives me every right to form an opinion of a country where my daily life is. You keep throwing this evidence remark out there, but you have yet to say anything. Why don't you tell us something that might be of substance to your "argument". PO's victory shows a lot about how many Polish feel about the influence of the Church. Many Polish tell me about their animosity towards the Church dictating what they can and can not do. PiS is directly connected to the Church's policies.

Judging by your avatar your a Nationalist who believe in the policies PiS is putting forth. The irony of PiS is that they want to create a Nationalist Poland under the flag of the Church. That is no different than communism. It just religious totalitarianism.

Former president of UPR party. He wrote also articles for Toronto's Goniecnewspaper.

michalkiewicz.pl


You may live in Poland but I judge your knowledge by you post here. You clearly don't understand Polish politics.


Neither myself or PiS party are nationalist. Also I have no sympathy to PiS, your judgment is entirely wrong.

You could be right. This is how I see things, however you could maybe enlighten me. I have no problems with being shown a different view point. This is how I see things and if it is incorrect please show me how.


Fair enough. Assumptions are not always the best way to judge.

thank you. I was not familiar with him. Will look him up for sure . Just watched a short interview with him on YouTube and he sounds like a reasonable person.

that is how the church exerts perssure..


that is how i feel but some of these guys want to be exclusive and discriminatory.. just because a pole is outside of PL doesn't mean he/she still doesn't care.. maybe we shouldn't.

well, I always will and no amount of criticism will put me off. I may not be aware of what is going on in the aspect of the daily affairs, but that doesn't mean I am not trying. It is dissapointing at times to hear Polish people say that if you are not Polish or you don't live in Poland your imput is not important. It is a result of too much pride and separatist notions, which is too bad. I have never hear other nationalities beeing put off by having an interest in their affairs. Oh, well.

plk123: if you had good acquaitances you could have skoda or Wartburg (warczyburg) :)

To everyone: do you know that in PL, used car was more expensive than the new one ?:)

P.

I heard that It's 800zl a year.

aka honecker :)

Dear God, I always suspected it, but now I know it's true! Mister Heniek, my neighbor, is a part of clergy’s pressure apparatus! ;P

Oh, Matty. You took it too far obviously and I am not paranoid here. There is a pressure in Poland when I am there which you will not detect because you are immune to it. I tis not even a pressure but luck of understanding that people might thing differently and if they do, they are crazy. Anyways, the women who tried to pressure my father into voting for a particular political party are devoted church goers. I cannot cross her mind that somebody can thing differantly than her. She meant well, I am sure, but it doesn't make it right.

But then again. It is hard to explain what I mean.