Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / Language  % width 21

adding się


rejd 5 | 17  
26 Jan 2009 /  #1
According to poltran.com,

Spotkamy means "We will meet"

Spotkamy się means "We will face each other"

I'm sure adding the się is probably a grammar thing, but I'm a bit confused as to what it's supposed to do. It looks like both sentences are future tense, so what exactly is it's purpose?
Davey 13 | 388  
26 Jan 2009 /  #2
Spotkamy się is 'we will meet eachother'
Adding się can add the word 'eachother', it can refer to 'oneself' or it can totally change the meaning of the verb!
barnaba  
26 Jan 2009 /  #3
Spotkamy means we will see somebody, spotkamy sie means we will see each other, me and you.
OP rejd 5 | 17  
26 Jan 2009 /  #4
Spotkamy means we will see somebody

Somebody in particular (him, her) just not the person I'm talking to, right?
benszymanski 8 | 465  
27 Jan 2009 /  #5
It's because spotkać like many many Polish is sensitive about whether it is used transitively (i.e. with a direct object such as "him" or "her") or intransitively (without in which case się is required).
Davey 13 | 388  
27 Jan 2009 /  #6
I wouldn't translate spotkać się as 'see eachother' as zobaczyć się would work for that....more like 'to meet up with eachother' because you're not just seeing somebody, you are physically meeting them somewhere.
asik  
27 Jan 2009 /  #7
Spotkamy means we will see somebody,

Example:
"Spotkamy/ Zobaczymy Bena u Daniela w domu" .. "We'll meet/see Ben at Daniel's place".

spotkamy sie means we will see each other, me and you.

"Spotkamy się/Zobaczymy się u Daniela" ... "We'll meet/see each other at Daniel's place".
HAL9009 2 | 304  
29 Jan 2009 /  #8
Verbs which contain "się" have a reflexive nature in general referring the action in some way onto the speaker.
gumishu  
2 Mar 2009 /  #9
there are verbs that don't go without się in modern Polish - for example: 'modlić się' ' to pray' - the reason for including 'się' now being largely obscure

other examples:
przyczynić się - to contribute
wymądrzać się - to play smarty pants - get me some more literary translation someone please ;)
cjjc 29 | 408  
29 Mar 2009 /  #10
Thread attached on merging:
That crazy little word called: Się

Ok so I'm not sure if I should really be asking this question but can somebody please explain to me the role in Język Polski of that annoying little word 'się'? It seems to pop up to me in the most unexpected of places (or to me any ways ;P) I've always thought of it as meaning 'yourself' is this correct?

Thanks.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
29 Mar 2009 /  #11
We had this debate on another thread but I can't find it. I think it's connected with agency (maybe a marker of ergativity) but the brains here said something different.
cjjc 29 | 408  
29 Mar 2009 /  #12
How stupid of me not to do a search.

I expect the thread will be merged once the mods get hold of it.

ergativity? I don't even know this word...
gumishu  
29 Mar 2009 /  #13
most basically it does mean yourself/oneself
(it can be treated as short for 'siebie')

myć się - to wash (oneself)
golić się - to shave (oneself)

but it also means one another/each other

spotkać się - to meet (each other/one another)
całować się - to kiss one another
kochać się - to love one another (but also to make love)
(Oni się kochają - They love each other. (also They make love)

and sometimes it is not possible to translate it as a word - being a unseparable part of a verb

bać się - to fear, to be affraid of
kurczyć się - to shrink
suszyć się - to dry (to get dried)
pocić się - to sweat
modlić się - to pray
cjjc 29 | 408  
29 Mar 2009 /  #14
gumishu

That is a really great simple no BS explanation and just how I like it.

I am not great with my own language so it helps me if I have simple explanations of these concepts.

Thank you!
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
29 Mar 2009 /  #15
gumishu

I don't mean to be rude, there must be a better explanation than "sometimes it means each other, sometimes it means themself, sometimes it doesn't"? It doesn't seem a conclusive explanation.

Perhaps agency?

uczyć - teach (agent)
uczyć się - learn (no agent)
cjjc 29 | 408  
29 Mar 2009 /  #16
MrBubbles

Sometimes it helps to keep things simple. I don't know of this grammar terminology and get confused easily so for me it was a good explanation.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
29 Mar 2009 /  #17
I'm going to put this next bit in bold because it's something I wanted to start a thread about, but I'm not sure if they will allow me to turn it into a new topic.

Why and how does the word się move in a sentence when accompanied by other words?
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
29 Mar 2009 /  #18
Sometimes it helps to keep things simple

Dude, the explanation doesn't get simpler than 'a marker of xyz.' This is another reason why people shouldn't get too bogged down in grammar explanations when learning a language. I'm hassling about this because I'm actually quite interested in finding out why myself...

Why and how does the word się move in a sentence when accompanied by other words?

Good question. I think it moves after modal expressions like -

Muszisz się uczyć!

Probably other things too. I'm buggered if I know why.
gumishu  
29 Mar 2009 /  #19
I am not sure if to try to is a modal expression in English
but it is also Próbujesz się uczyć? - Are you trying to learn (now)?
Lubisz się uczyć,co? - You do like to learn, don't you?

it has to do with the intonation or rather the flow of the speech, simply Musisz uczyć się produces and unpleasant stacatto of the accents while Musisz się uczyć flows quite gently. You have to put much more energy into stacatto expressions. Btw it is not a mistake to say Musisz uczyć się. everyone will understand, just does not sound natural(meaning people are used to Musisz się uczyć.)

No to się widzimy za tydzień. So we see each other in a week.
There's no modal verb here but się moves anyway.
It can even become No to się za tydzień widzimy,ok?

No to widzimy się za tydzień.
is also quite fluent, while
No to za tydzień widzimy się.
doesn't sound nice (you have to play with intonation quite a lot)

so actually there is no evident grammatical rule you just don't hear się too often in the end and the begining of a sentence.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
29 Mar 2009 /  #20
I wouldn't have thought of putting it at the beginning, but in future I shall try to keep it away from the end! Good idea?
gumishu  
29 Mar 2009 /  #21
się wie - sure I know (slang)

Archives - 2005-2009 / Language / adding sięArchived