News / The Polish-Hungarian friendship is as well as poisoned [45]

Crow:
In same encyclopedia, you will find that the Polish Hussar was extremely heavy cavalry, not the 'proper light cavalry' of Serbia you claim it to be.

News / Poland and Germany - Germany unhappy with the present border with Poland? [88]

Sokrates


But our Spec-Ops trump yours. See: GROM.
Further, your military, as I recall, is burdened with horrific size limits of something under half a million. I can't see the countries which insisted on these limits overlooking their violation with Germany as the aggressor. And the burden of holding on to a captured territory? In the WWII days, the acts of blowing things up with Molotov Cocktails or openly assassinating officers that were at first oh-so-frequent were stopped by the reprecussion of wholesale slaughter of the civilian population. Nowadays, I doubt that would fly. Iraq would look look like a training ground for the forces of world powers in comparison, unless I miss my guess and Davies horrificly exaggerates the scale.

But, on to the topic at hand. It is true; the method and consequences of the expulsions of ethnic Germans from the Western lands were terrible. They should be recognized as such, but no more. Those atrocities pale in comparison to those performed by the occupying Germans.

To be fair, recognition and apology for the latter is commonplace. But I still can't see anyone speaking on behalf of Germans demanding a Polish apology for atrocities commited upon civilians with a straight face.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

I personally agree that Poland should meet the property and monetary demands, but only if Germany paid for them. And the Ukrainians... fine, leave them. Cut contact. No more aid, no more nothing... I'm sure the majority of Polish really wouldn't mind too much.

Otherwise, no, I don't agree that Poland should accept 'a fraction of the guilt' for the Holocaust, or for 'starting WWII'. Surely you, Harry, as a person with at the very least rudimentary knowledge of said history, in fact agree.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Because the German government is (was) much more accountable for loss of property in Poland than the Polish government. Which arguably isn't even the same government now as at the time of said events any more than the German government. Which is not to say that the German government should, so late after the fact, pay any such fees... to the contrary, I dare suggest that the concept is laughable, but that the idea of Poland providing reimbursement for these 'displaced peoples' is even more so.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]


In the same sense that modern-day Poland is not a Soviet satellite in my eyes. So basically, it seems we agree.


To the contrary, it was my intention to suggest that no payments should be forthcoming. And that just as Poland is not asking for any reparations from Germany at this point, nor should an unrelated (or related) group of Jews ask for the same from Poland whilst keeping a straight face.


Sorry... what exactly is it that you are suggesting Poland should do?

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Harry



Fixed.


Wait, what? I'm honestly not even sure how to go about this one. It sounds much like the 'Started WWII' one, except much less susceptible to logic. =/

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Actually, you forgot the "their Ukrainian allies" part.

History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]


Yes, it probably does. A much better foreign policy probably would indeed have been a pre-emptive invasion of Germany.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Beyond that, I'm even more confused by the 'stabbed their Ukrainian allies in the back' part. 'Stabbed their hostile Ukrainian neighbors' doesn't really fit, either...

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]


No, he's right on this one. Violation of the Treaty of Riga was clear beyond doubt.
I'm a bit hazy on those events, so I'll have to look into the 'brutal policy of Polonisation' mentioned, but the 'backstabbing' is pretty clear.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]


Right, thanks. That's what I meant to type (really!), except that I haven't been thinking too well as of late. I can survive harsh training conditions, food rationing, dehydration, heat, exhaustion to the point of muscle failure, any psychological trauma I've ever been exposed to... except lack of sleep. Interrogation would probably fail on me, so long as nobody ever thinks to try extended periods of sleep deprivation. =(


Thing is, the Polish government did, and made such recognition clear and binding in the Treaty of Warsaw. The writing was very clear: According to all parties involved, an independent Ukrainian nation existed, with defined borders and a right to sovereignty. The writing was also clear on that no separate peace was to be made by one party to the disadvantage of another. Poland did exactly that, which easily constitutes a very cold, hard betrayal. Whether Poland made this decision before or after the signing of the Treaty of Warsaw (when 'circumstances changed') is a matter of little consequence.

If Harry were putting a misleading twist on the truth, or telling only part of it, I assure you that I'd only be all too ready to call him on it. Because I'm not here to participate in a propaganda war; I'm here to discuss Polish Politics and History, and try to see it done as accurately, informatively, and thoroughly as possible. And while I am a Pole, and I do enjoy reading good things about my country more than I do bad, I also value a harsh truth over a pleasant fantasy. So, let's not argue the facts: Poland signed a treaty with the Ukrainians. They then went back on that treaty in such a way as to screw those people over. Overall, I think, Poland's history presents more favorable an image than most, but it's a fairy-tale Poland which has done no wrong in all its existence.

So, I'm not here 'taking sides' on whatever agenda battles may be happening on these forums at this time, but Harry is definitely right here. There's no question about it. He is correct in judging the Polish violation of the Treaty of Warsaw as a betrayal practically a textbook example of 'betrayal' both de jure and de facto. A Harvard Lit professor couldn't construct what appeared to be an effective argument against this fact.

What I didn't find, though, Harry, was the Polonisation procedure as having been what is well described as 'brutal'. Pretty harsh, yes, and by no means something to be supported, but 'brutal' implies 'violent'. And if I recall correctly (which I think I do, though it's hard for me to keep my eyes - er, think right now), the German kulturkampf and Russia's attempted eradication of Polish culture and identity were far worse during those oft-mentioned 200 years of occupation.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]


Normally, I'd whip out the Davies, but those volumes are currently on loan to a friend, and the free online edition of Volume II has disappeared from Google Books (replaced with a 16-page preview of a newer version, as I finally accepted after an extended web search), so I deeply apologize for having to settle for this half-assed, lame Wikipedia quote:


Of course I don't need to get in to how the Russians were far worse.

Harry


Not quite:

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Harry


But to fulfill the requirements, technically, you'd have to provide at least two.

History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]

It's true that the British betrayal was not quite so terrible as the earlier Polish one.
Which is not to say that there was no betrayal by Britain, either. The fact that Poland did a terrible thing to the Ukrainians hardly excuses the British with regards to the Polish. It's worth noting that a lot more deaths resulted from the latter.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

I don't get it... you haven't provided two (?), and if you have, then only one is linked with the betrayal of the Ukrainians in Peace of Riga? That is the point of the exercise, right?

History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]

"As the House is aware, certain consultations are now proceeding with other Governments. In order to make perfectly clear the position of His Majesty's Government in the meantime before those consultations are concluded, I now have to inform the House that during that period, in the event of any action which clearly threatened Polish independence, and which the Polish Government accordingly considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power. They have given the Polish Government an assurance to this effect. I may add that the French Government have authorized me to make it plain that they stand in the same position in this matter as do His Majesty's Government."

yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/bluebook/blbk17.htm

Shortly thereafter a formal agreement between Poland and Britain was signed which clearly stated "If Germany attacks Poland His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom will at once come to the help of Poland."

Anita Prazmowska, Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front, 1939 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987), p. 193.

Expectations of swift Allied action were also repeatedly reinforced by the British. For example, during Anglo-Polish General Staff talks held in Warsaw at the end of May, the Poles stressed the need for British aerial assaults on Germany should war break out. The British responded with assurances that the Royal Air Force would attack industrial, civilian, and military targets.[10] General Sir Edmund Ironside then repeated this promise during an official visit to Warsaw in July.

Prazmowska, Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front, pp. 94-95.

What transpired is by now well known. The RAF did not even attempt to bomb German military installations because, as the Air Staff concluded on September 20: "Since the immutable aim of the Allies is the ultimate defeat of Germany, without which the fate of Poland is permanently sealed, it would obviously be militarily unsound and to the disadvantage of all, including Poland, to undertake at any given moment operations ... unlikely to achieve effective results, merely for the sake of maintaining a gesture." The Chiefs of Staff agreed, informing 10 Downing Street that "nothing we can do in the air in the Western Theatre would have any effect of relieving pressure on Poland."[20] And so the RAF decided instead to drop propaganda leaflets.

Prazmowska, Britain, Poland and the Eastern Front, pp. 183-184.

The opportunity to fight a brief, localized war against Germany was therefore lost in September 1939. In hindsight, also lost were the opportunities to save millions of lives, to rid the world of Hitler, and to have prevented the creation of conditions that led to the Cold War. As General Ironside commented in 1945, after much of Europe was in ruins, "Militarily we should have gone all out against the German the minute he invaded Poland. ... We did not ... And so we missed the strategical advantage of the Germans being engaged in the East. We thought completely defensively and of ourselves."

Cienciala, Poland and the Western Powers, p. 249.

Are you suggesting that the Brits did exactly (or even remotely) as obliged? Seems like a betrayal to me. And of course, if we're going to revert to the topic of 'the Western Powers', where was France's "within fifteen days" invasion that could have saved both countries, except that it never came? Unless you're saying that technically the treaty was upheld because it was physically impossible for Britain to aid Poland with anything more effective than propaganda leaflets?

Tell me, General, what effect our leaflet raids have had?
- Churchill, in response to lamentation about the Polish Armed Force's effectiveness in fighting the Germans.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Oh, so that's all you're trying to do. I'd thought you were trying to... never mind. Good job, I guess? =p

History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]


Unless I'm missing something, yes, it did, just edited to place 'Poland' in the place of 'Contracting Power' and 'Germany' in the place of 'European Power'. Article I, of course.


Probably because there's a good bit of difference between 'run away' and 'left port'. The Polish Navy went on to be the most decorated of any participating, as we all know.


I don't know, I just posted the quote. I'm not exactly an expert on the times and neither one on WWII-era warfare. I just know that credible expert (at least on land-based warfare) Ironside stated that it was more than strategically advantagous in hindsight to attack Germany all-out at the agreed-upon time.

But, you are saying that there was nothing at all within Britain's power to do to aid Poland that they did not, correct?

And, if I may say so: Dariusz, your comments on Harry's prescribed medication were completely out of line. While that's the case, Harry, his daughter's hardly at fault...

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Nathan: cherry-picking, you are. I therefore will not respond.

History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]

Copernicus:

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]



Except that's not what happened at all. I provided a list of actions carried out against Polish culture in Prussian Poland, and you selected one item from that list, asked me to compare it to the Polonisation procedure, and have the gall to be indignant when I do not respond? Please don't pull the Chewbacca Defense card on me, because in most cases, I'd find it not worth my time to even call you on it.

History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]


There was a source listed along with that statement, take it up with Davies if you wish (just check page 26, etc. for related information, and possible check Davies' cited source independently). I sadly do not have access to the volume right now.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Nathan:


Yes, I believe you are missing something. It seems to me that the only thing you're not missing is the specifics of transfer of property from Polish/Ukrainian to German/Polish inhabitants. This did not, however, comprise the full extent of my post, and using this lone example in comparison to a counterpart as a representation of the whole of the procedures in question... I have no idea what you're getting at. So, if you're pulling a Chewbacca Defense, then congratulations, you've succeeded. I am now thoroughly confused, and as such will not respond. If, on the other hand, you actually do want a response from me that actually makes sense, please clarify, first, the matter for me, as to what exactly you're going at?

History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]

BB


Sorry, I'm not in a position to answer right now. Theoretically, I could inconvenience myself to no end to provide for you exactly what it will take to convince you of most anything even partially ambiguously against the German nation, but in that case, maybe it shouldn't be too hard for you, either? There is a limit to how much time I have on my hands that I wish to use browsing the web for obscure topics for the betterment of people who I know scarcely at best, though such time exists, and trying to dig up Davies' citations on this claim for free have already caused me to go over it. I know it's not your fault, but it's just not happening at this point in time.


If that is the case, please do, in fact, find a better one, and I'll thank you for it. Though, since any historian that claims 'evidence that Copernicus spoke the Polish language' could just be written off by you as 'Polonophilic', that will likely be very difficult.

I'm sure that, say, Adam Zamoyski for example would have put in some input on the topic, but even I don't like citing the guy in favor of Poland.

History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]


See, that individual part isn't hard to understand. Which is why I'd originally posted the quote below:


Simplified:
Poles were forbidden to build homes in said area. (Ukraine as well, I know)
Forced buy-outs.
Forced evictions. (Ukraine as well, I know)
Banning of the Polish language. (Ukraine as well, I know)
Children beaten (because I doubt 'tortured' is quite accurate; this is why I hate Wiki) at schools for using language. (Ukraine as well? I don't know.)

Governmental aid for racial majority of occupying force to settle these lands.


Chewbacca Defense: attempt to win a debate by 'last man standing' methodology. Usually carried out by causing excessive confusion or excessive frustration until opponent just gives up and leaves. Logic being that lack of a responding post means that you win the debate.

Not to be confused with Godwin's Law: ""As an internet discussion/debate grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

"You know who else used laws to stop debates? Hitler!"

...back on topic, is this really quite so harsh as I'd originally thought it to be? Apparently not, though it's still debatably worse than Polonisation procedures in Ukrainian lands. Possibly it's not even Davies' description I was thinking of, but Zamoyski's instead. But I haven't yet seen any reason why I was wrong when I said that it was.

History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]


What about a book title, author, and page number where said evidence could be found?

I don't claim to 'know' the statement made to have been true, myself, but I think it's just silly to write it off without doing just so much to check...

History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]


“With the Nazis, we lose our lives; with the Soviets, we lose our souls.... If I found my army between the Nazis and the Soviets, I would attack in both directions.”

-Polish General Anders to American General Patton.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Really. Since when, again, did your oft-cited Polonisation procedure include the killing of people's 'only children'? Or first-born son, or whatever else you'd think would justify UPA atrocities if only it had actually ever happened? And don't tell me they went to Bereza Kartuska, either. Killed and raped women and kids, what?

Though, I suppose the last part does need mentioning given that UPA was famous for it. Those people were such primitive savages, the Polish and Soviet armies actually worked together to wipe them out. Which isn't something that happens every day.

News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]


Not to butt in, but if that's how you're arguing, it's not hard to see how nobody's supporting you... hell, to be honest, I'm sure we already all know by now how nobody even likes you.

Because, seriously, you're starting to look like the comical conspiracy-theorist type. Did JFK really get shot in the head by a radical pro-Cuban? We will never find out, that's for sure.

Anyway, I'd say it's more likely the error was made simply out of some American's (having lived in America, I can tell you that while intelligent and thoughtful people can generally be found in reasonable supply, it's much harder to find one not ignorant of happenings outside of his country's borders) Critical Research(/Logic) Failure, and not malice or conspiracy. Can't be helped; there's no effective forcible cure for stupidity (except perhaps, to quote bash, taking the safety labels off of everything, and letting the problem solve itself), so there's really no point in getting upset about it. Just a little exhasperated(sp?), perhaps.

News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]


Actually the bone marrow.