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A few thoughts after plowing through most "Sabaton: 40-1" comments on YouTube


equinox 1 | 4  
27 Jul 2009 /  #1
First off: great song and a hell of a story... 700 men holding back 42,000 for 3 days... Raginis blowing himself up, as the Germans storm his bunker (to take a few more with him, I'm guess)... For crying out loud, the Germans had almost as many _GUNS_ (650) as the Poles had _INDIVIDUAL_SOLDIERS_ (700). Insane odds. The first time ever Nazis got publicly b-i-t-c-h-slapped on a battlefield.

It's very uplifting to read all the congratulatory notes coming in from all over Europe: Holland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Greece, the Czech Republic and, er... Israel? Wait... what happened to the usual accusation of "collaboration"? Quietly swept under the carpet? Wow. Amazing what a few hard facts can do.

Of particular value are the congrats from Finland, which pulled off a similar feat during the Winter War, holding back 250,000 Russians with 25,000 men (10-1). As at Wizna, they ultimately lost, but not before making an equally gallant entrance onto pages of history (not to mention making the Red Army the laughingstock of Europe).

Perhaps we should establish a new Friendship Pact with Finns on this basis? To complement our Eternal Polish-Hungarian Friendship? I believe Finns and Hungarians are actually related.

Can't help noticing that the usual Pole-baiting comments from Germans are much more muted, as if "40-1" finally knocked out the teeth out of their cherished bedtime stories about "Polish cavalry charging German tanks". Ain't that easy to sell that drivel now, even to the most hardened numskulls.

BTW, it's quite amusing to watch the Germans one-up themselves to trim September Campaign down to Goebbels-approved size. As you read the comments, the campaign magically shrinks from a month down to 20 days, then to 10 days, then down to a week. Looks like the "more-Adolf-than-Adolf" German you wanna be, the shorter the campaign gets. I suspect that holed up someplace in the dark forests of Thuringia sits the one and only Super Duper Hard Core I-Will-Out-Adolf-You-All German, whose version takes it one step further and actually drops down into negative numbers. In the middle of this time warp we find out that the campaign actually ended before it even got started.

My questions:

1) Why did it take some obscure Swedish power metal band to make this story publicly known? Why isn't this great tale taught in every grade school in Poland?

2) Why isn't there a street named after Cpt. Raginis in every Polish town?

3) Why did he only get Virtuti Militari 4th Class? Who exactly are the first 3 classes reserved for? Julius Cesar and Napoleon? Who exactly among WW2 Polish soldiers showed more combat spirit then Raginis? The closest thing that comes to mind is the 303 Squadron (most enemy kills during Battle of Britain), but I must say with the 40-1 ratio Wizna takes the cake.

4) And finally... why hasn't there been a movie made about Wizna yet? Are straightforward, patriotic movies a la "300" too un-PC these days? If Raginis had been an American, there would've been 10 Hollywood hurrah fests made about him by now, with Clooney and Brad Pitt lining up for another remake (these are the Days of Endless Remakes, after all).

Oh, well.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
27 Jul 2009 /  #2
1) Why did it take some obscure Swedish power metal band to make this story publicly known? Why isn't this great tale taught in every grade school in Poland?

If Poles would start to teach their children about all victories then they would be lacking time to tell them about all catastrophes, while this is priority of every healthy nation.

2) Why isn't there a street named after Cpt. Raginis in every Polish town?

No chance for that, wait few years and you will see plenty of new streets named after Geremek, Michnik, Kuron, Mazowiecki and similar "democratic heroes". There wont be any space to leave to any decent people.

3) Why did he only get Virtuti Militari 4th Class?

If I could guess then I would say that he was anti-German (eventually anti-Jewish). Being anti-German during the war against Germany is unthinkable according to current Polish elites. :)

4) And finally... why hasn't there been a movie made about Wizna yet? Are straightforward, patriotic movies a la "300" too un-PC these days? If Raginis had been an American, there would've been 10 Hollywood hurrah fests made about him by now, with Clooney and Brad Pitt lining up for another remake (these are the Days of Endless Remakes, after all).

Wait, firstly let the Poles to film all their catastrophes vide Katyn.
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
27 Jul 2009 /  #3
4) And finally... why hasn't there been a movie made about Wizna yet? Are straightforward, patriotic movies a la "300" too un-PC these days? If Raginis had been an American, there would've been 10 Hollywood hurrah fests made about him by now, with Clooney and Brad Pitt lining up for another remake (these are the Days of Endless Remakes, after all).

I thought there already was a polish movie made about this battle?? As for hollywood, it will never make this movie.

I remember a few years ago there was some talk about a company in poland trying to recruit mel gibson to direct a movie about jan sobieski - it flopped.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #4
If I could guess then I would say that he was anti-German (eventually anti-Jewish). Being anti-German during the war against Germany is unthinkable according to current Polish elites. :)

I don't know if I'd go that far. Honestly, I'd say probably instead because nobody knows exactly or approximately what his troop's kill/death ratio. It's an awesome story and a great song (actually 60 to 1, per Wiki btw), but note also that Raginis' location was defensively all but ideal (bunkers on hills, surrounded by swamps, river to cross...), so three days, while amazing, is not so far as miraculous.

I'd like to see a song about Battle of the Vistula, next. That would be pretty awesome, imo.
As for the movies... give 'em time, they're starting to come out now. I'm sure there'll be something among those lines in the next five to ten years, tops.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #5
What's the fuss about?

I read about this but couldn't detect anything special (besides Germans dropping leaflets to give the Poles a chance to surrender).

Germans attack - Poles defend a fort - Poles get overrun - Poles kill themselves - Germans march on - Poland done 3 weeks later

So what?

But hey...maybe you should put it in your holy lists of battles against Germans...like...um....say ...Grunwald...:)

PS: Sabatons lyrics are quite funny when you think about it:
"So come, bring on all that you've got/Come hell, come high water, Never stop/Unless you are 40 to 1/Your lives will soon be undone"

If I were a Pole I would rather not try it again...
The last times Poles bragged about a war with Germany they did not look so good later!
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #6
I see a Thermopalye comparison (I refuse to take the time to make sure I've spelled that correctly).

"Persians attack - Spartans defend a pass - Spartans get overrun - Spartans effectively kill themselves - Persians march on - (actually get beat later but oh well, no analogy is perfect).

So what?"

[quote]"So come, bring on all that you've got/Come hell, come high water, Never stop/Unless you are 40 to 1/Your lives will soon be undone"

[/quote]
They're actually Swedes. I think the intended effect was much less meant as an accurate depiction of the average Polish soldier's total badassed awesomeness and power but rather to help 'capture' the spirit of the battle.

If I were a Pole I would rather not try it again...
The last times Poles bragged about a war with Germany they did not look so good later!

I'm not sure of exactly the event to which you're referring, but you're welcome to come teach us a lesson or two if you feel up to it. ;)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #7
It's even more amusing trying to make the Poland campaign somehow to something else than a devastating, humiliating defeat for the "in one week in Berlin" types of "proud" Poles. :):):)

The Germans ate you for breakfast in '39 and no lone battle which took 3 days instead of 3 hours changes that...
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #8
The Germans ate you for breakfast in '39 and no lone battle which took 3 days instead of 3 hours changes that...

Hey, the Russians helped...
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #9
Do you really think it did make a difference in the long run?
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #10
Yes: Now I get to throw out the "We'll never know for sure what would've happened had Germany tried to take on Poland alone..." line, smugly, every time somebody brings that up. =D
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #11
The entire September '39 campaign was one huge encirclement battle with Polish
troops stretched on a way too long front surrounded by Germans attacking from
the west, south and north and two weeks into the war Soviets invading from
the East.

Considering the circumstances and the gap in technology, Polish army did outstandingly
well. The French Army supported by the British Expeditionary Force, having more tanks
and airplanes than Germans and not being encircled by the enemy, lasted only two
weeks longer.

something else than a devastating, humiliating defeat

The thread is about the Battle of Wizna which was a defeat for Polish army but not
at all a humiliating one. It is sad that 70 years after the event some people are not
able to appreciate and acknowledge the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers.

Pity...
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #12
Yes: Now I get to throw out the "We'll never know for sure what would've happened had Germany tried to take on Poland alone..." line, smugly, every time somebody brings that up. =D

So you really think without the Russians Poland would have won against the Germans???

Considering the circumstances and the gap in technology, Polish army did outstandingly
well.

Where? When?

Done in four weeks is for no army an "outstandingly well" achievement I would think...

Considering the circumstances and the gap in technology,

Well...during the build up to this war most Poles seemed to think they could take on Germany any time and be "in one week in Berlin".

A quote the Germans remember very well..
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #13
So you really think without the Russians Poland would have won against the Germans???

I guess we'll never know for sure what would've happened had Germany tried to take on Poland alone... =p
See?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #14
I've asked you if you really think that Poland could have won against the german forces at the best circumstances..
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #15
I guess we'll never know for sure...

Also a fun line to throw out is, "If Germany didn't need Russia's help, why ask for it?"
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #16
"If Germany didn't need Russia's help, why ask for it?"

Wot???
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #17
Well...during the build up to this war most Poles seemed
to think they could take on Germany any time and be "in one week in Berlin".

That's because we had an alliance with France. Even your own generals admitted
that Germany wouldn't have been able to last if both Poland and France (with British
support) had invaded before 1938.

Pre-emptive strike - that's what was needed and that's what we failed to do,
unfortunately for Poland and Europe.

I've asked you if you really think that Poland could
have won against the german forces at the best circumstances.

Easily.

If Czechs didn't surrender like cowards in 1938 but decided to ally themselves
with Poland instead, it would result in Germany not being able to encircle Polish
armies from the South and add some Czech troops to our forces (having very
good weapons, mainly tanks). The only problem would be to convince those
Czech divisions to actually fight *rolls eyes*

That's one condition. The second condition - France. If they were reliable allies
and attacked you from the West, where you only had weak, reserve forces you
would be crushed, maybe not in a week but in a month. Also - in such a scenario
Soviets wouldn't invade Poland.

So, under the best circumstances, if Czechs hadn't surrendered, if France had been
a reliable ally and if Soviets hadn't invaded from the East we would have owned you
like bitc*hes. The history didn't turn out like this, so you owned us. Though shi*t.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #18
Wot???

That's right: if Germany could have taken on Poland herself, and kept the whole country, why get Russia to help, and only keep half of it? Unless they couldn't, of course. In which case we fully understand your rationale in ganging up on a single country and then bragging about your superior might after having jointly slaughtered millions (of innocents).

If Czechs didn't surrender like cowards in 1938 but decided to ally themselves
with Poland instead, it would result in Germany not being able to encircle Polish
armies from the South and add some Czech troops to our forces (having very
good weapons, mainly tanks). The only problem would be to convince those
Czech divisions to actually fight *rolls eyes*

I don't know about that part. That's only assuming that the Czech troops didn't just get steamrolled over.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #19
Easily.

Oh puuuuuuuuuuuleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!

You belong to the same type of Poles who screamed still in August '39 "Bring 'em on!""We will show them!"
Totally overestimation of your capabilities...must be a polish thing!:)
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #20
Right... suuuure.... says the pack hunter. :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #21
That's right: if Germany could have taken on Poland herself, and kept the whole country, why get Russia to help, and only keep half of it? Unless they couldn't, of course. In which case we fully understand your rationale in ganging up on a single country and then bragging about your superior might after having jointly slaughtered millions (of innocents).

Germany didn't ask the Russians for help as there was none needed. It was a strategical move on their part and the start of the dance which led later to the war at the eastern front..

If it makes you feel better, nobody could have withstood the german army in 1940. They plowed through Europe like nothing before, the only thing what saved the Brits was the channel after they run with their tail between their legs.
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #22
That's only assuming that the Czech troops didn't just get steamrolled over.

If they had only been willing to put up a fight, they wouldn't have been overrun so
easily. Remember that the front Czechs would have had to defend was quite short,
with strong fortifications and their army was very well equipped.

nobody could have withstood the german army in 1940

Bollox.

In September 1939, 2-3 weeks into the war when your army was starting to run short
on supplies and our forces were overcoming the initial shock and preparing some counter
offensive moves and a new defensive line on "Przedmoście Rumuńskie" - the Soviets
striked from the East.

Just like you agreed.

Your ally - Soviet Union, was more reliable than our "ally" - France, and they
did attack Poland as agreed.

If they hadn't invaded we would have owned you like bit*ches. Simple as that.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #23
If they had only been willing to put up a fight, they wouldn't have been overrun so
easily. Remember that the front Czechs would have had to defend was quite short,
with strong fortifications and their army was very well equipped.

Well...the Belgians had Eben Emael - the strongest fort of the world, thought insurmountable - the French had a bigger and more modern army with more tanks than the Germans...did not help them one bit!

Bollox.

Well...I don't know what history books you read but that's what happened! :)

If they hadn't invaded we would have owned you like bit*ches. Simple as that.

Wishful thinking, that's all!
And overestimating ones capabilities seems really to be a polish trait...
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #24
A little bit off topic, but reading some posts on this and other forums I think
that if history was to repeat itself - the Germans would do exactly the same
thing they did during WW2. They would slaughter innocent women and children,
kill newborn babies and murder the elites and intelligentsia of conquered
countries (well, in the East at least).

I mean, come on, people can't change that much in 60 odd years.

BB - you said yourself that you would have voted for Hitler, right?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #25
Sorry you can't bear abit reality check Torqi!
Did it hit a nerve here?
Is it really so hard for you to admit that the Germans have the stronger forces? I mean we slugged the French three times (1870, 1914, 1940) and we are friends now...:)

PS: You don't plow your way through Europe killing women and children, you know? It's abit counterproductive not concentrating your forces on the enemy armies...if the Germans had only that they won't had come much farther than their borders!
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
28 Jul 2009 /  #26
Germany didn't ask the Russians for help as there was none needed. It was a strategical move on their part and the start of the dance which led later to the war at the eastern front..

What, give them a giant buffer zone before attacking it? Very strategic, indeed. This of course is the functioning of the genetically-superior think-tank Hitler put together. Signing a non-aggression pact so you can later stab a country in the back is for the lowly common folk... real elites give them a bunch of land filled with people that hate and severely want to kill you between them and yourself and then declare war on their allies, first.

If it makes you feel better, nobody could have withstood the german army in 1940. They plowed through Europe like nothing before, the only thing what saved the Brits was the channel after they run with their tail between their legs.

It's what makes a lot of people feel better. That's the image most often portrayed of the German forces these days. It makes the French and British feel better for being cowards and unwilling to fight them until the last moment. It makes the Polish, and the rest of Europe, feel better for being overrun. It makes the Russians feel like straight-up heroes for being the point where reality (economy, resources, etc.) finally caught up with them. It makes the Germans feel better about themselves, and the Italians because they can technically claim to have helped.

Fact is, they had better technology and a whole lot more of it. No matter how many time-travel type fiction novels might disagree, the Nazis never really had any hope of winning the war at all. Just look what the US - having all the advantages of Germany at the time (economic, technological, population) did to you, and they didn't even begin with a fully mobilized military. That was back when it was an isolationist country unwilling to fight any other than minor nearby Hispanic countries unless directly provoked. And fighting on two fronts, too.

Well...the Belgians had Eben Emael - the strongest fort of the world, thought insurmountable - the French had a bigger and more modern army with more tanks than the Germans...did not help them one bit!

The Belgians had a fort, big deal. The French had... oh, come on. Like it matters what the French had. :)
Tell me why you totally circumnavigated Switzerland.

PS: You don't plow through Europe killing women and children, you know? It's abit counterproductive not concentrating your forces on the enemy armies...

It's what stopped the open assassinations of German officers and bombing of their buildings in Poland... wholesale massacre of the civilian population, that is. Though, to be fair, that's hardly representative of what the Germans did elsewhere... because what normal German would, at that time, want to be stationed in Poland? :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #27
Like it matters what the French had. :)

Well...they will always serve as a prime example that a country needs more than a "grande army" with good equipment to be an effective force.

The french had all that but look what happened...

Tell me why you totally circumnavigated Switzerland.

They had the Nazi gold in their banks? I'm only guessing here...

No matter how many time-travel type fiction novels might disagree, the Nazis never really had any hope of winning the war at all.

If they had kept the Russians out of it and the whole affair in Europe, then yes...

But the Nazis being the Nazis there was no stopping at all.
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #28
Sorry you can't bear abit reality check Torqi!
Did it it hit a nerve here?

Well, actually, I did find it a bit annoying that you can't acknowledge the bravery
and heroism of Polish soldiers during the battle of Wizna, because that's what the
thread is about. Not about the September Campaign, not about how great wehrmacht
was, but about the battle in which 700 men held back 42,000 for 3 days.

we are friends now...:)

Allies, BB, we are allies. I wouldn't go as far as saying "friends".

Maybe our children or grandchildren will be friends. That is of course if you keep
those few idiots, who question the border with Poland, at bay (but I'm sure you
can handle them).

You don't plow your way through Europe killing women and children, you know? It's abit counterproductive not concentrating your forces on the enemy armies

Of course, you did that in the countries that you had already conquered.
Or are you saying that among those 3 million ethnic Poles that you slaughtered
there weren't any women or children?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,346  
28 Jul 2009 /  #29
Which border???

Of course, you did that in the countries that you had already conquered.
Or are you saying that among those 3 million ethnic Poles that you slaughtered
there weren't any women or children

Well...maybe I could acknowledge more the achievements of the polish army when you could acknowledge that the german army did actually sometimes fight against enemy military during breaks slaughtering civilians.
Torq  
28 Jul 2009 /  #30
Which border??? heh

Well, there has to be a border if NPD is crying about an invasion :)

Well...maybe I could acknowledge more the achievements of the polish army when you could acknowledge that the german army did actually sometimes fight against enemy military during breaks slaughtering civilians.

You've been to this forum for long enough to know the rules of engagement against
me :) Everytime you try to diminish the bravery of Polish soldiers or try to ridicule our
war effort etc. etc. I will remind you about the inhuman atrocities that your army
comitted. Such are the rules, sorry - ordnung muss sein :)

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