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Stolen hero of the forgotten war.


Borrka 37 | 594  
10 Apr 2009 /  #1
Nicolai Gogol is a pride of Ukrainian literature being at the same time one of the greatest Russian language writers.

Vladimir Bortko, Moscow born film director (known in Poland for his filming of Bulhakov's Master and Margareta or The Dog's Heart) decided to make a new adaptation of Gogol's "Taras Bulba".

The decision was taken in the good times of oil boom and growing Polonophobic hysteria in Russia.

I like Bortko's movies.
I even do like his frankness in promoting anti-Polish and anti-Ukrainian views.
"It should be patriotic movie presenting the Russo-Ukrainian unity.
Everybody should remember we are one people even when living in different countries."

What the hell has in common Russian chauvinism with the never ending Polish-Cossack conflict ?
Perhaps the only common denominator is Russian oppressor who destroyed both Poland and Cossack Sech.

Political views of Gogol were influenced by Russian Slavophiles and "Taras Bulba" hardly makes some nice picture of Poles.
But as long it's used in order to show part of our history (even its "Ukrainian version") I have no problems at all.

The fictive case "Bulba" was quite possible in reality.

Bortko's adaptation is manipulated to create an old and well known message:
only Russian protection makes Ukrainians really free !

PS. Interesting reaction of some Russian on "Taras Bulba" movie forum.
"Ukrainians as a nation were invented by Polish imperialism."
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 Apr 2009 /  #2
Nicolai Gogol is a pride of Ukrainian literature

how is that? could you please elaborate? He doesn't write in Ukrainian but he's a pride of Ukrainian literature... *confused*

growing Polonophobic hysteria in Russia.

There's no Polonophobic hysteria in Russia yet thankfully (to me). Or if you still want to stick with that word, how would you then name Polish policy towards Russia?

Political views of Gogol were influenced by Russian Slavophiles

If you familiarized yourself with his biography, you could easily see how unpolitical he had been. He stayed away of political sentiments and was I would even say friendly towards Poles rather than neutral. But yes the easiest way to explain this World is to look for "Russian chauvinists" all the time as they most likely crucified the Saviour.

PS. Interesting reaction of some Russian on "Taras Bulba" movie forum.
"Ukrainians as a nation were invented by Polish imperialism."

You know Boria I find your reaction much more deserving attention...
OP Borrka 37 | 594  
10 Apr 2009 /  #3
He doesn't write in Ukrainia

Since when the language we use determinates our nationality, Sasha ?
Even today offsprings of my Ukrainian friends (you will call them Baderovtsi or Mazepintsi LOL) prefer to speak Russian because of the Russian TV, school, environment etc.

But better don't try to call them Russians !

Similar goes for Irish culture and literature in English.

There's no Polonophobic hysteria in Russia

"Polonophobic hysteria" is just my rhetoric but in general our contacts are rather "cold".
I mean the political level and not the Vania to Janek relationship.
Simple your elite has problems with accepting Polish support for Ukraine in NATO and EU.
It seems to be the main issue.

you could easily see how unpolitical he had been

Agreed but again, some Slavophiles were his close friends and Taras Bulba hardly makes a monument to the Polish-Ukrainian brotherhood.

But yes the easiest way to explain this World is to look for "Russian chauvinists"

Definitely, given our geographical location and political position.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Apr 2009 /  #4
"It should be patriotic movie presenting the Russo-Ukrainian unity.
Everybody should remember we are one people even when living in different countries."

I disagree, Ukrainians are Polish property.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Apr 2009 /  #5
Sokrates, that's a laugh. I rarely hear talk, whether it be political or otherwise, here about Ukraine. The last time there was togetherness was when Yushenko appeared with Lech KaczyƄski and some other Baltic leaders in the facade that was the 'War in Georgia'.

Russia won that war by using end-of-line equipment. It has been said that Russia starts wars very slowly but they seemed to be quick enough off the mark this time round. Poland thought it was a farce. Well, I got news for those who went against Russia. The Russians extended their business in Abkhazia and no-one batted an eyelid. It was all over BBC, some support program that was of a sizeable scale. It was an engineered war which relied on heavy and fallacious propaganda.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Apr 2009 /  #6
A show of force against the weak and defencless, a low cost war if you will.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Apr 2009 /  #7
What were they to do, sit by idly and watch while independent States got attacked? It wasn't a protracted war, nor was it ever gonna be. It was a staged one, did you see how quickly the nonsense spread?

Restitutio in integrum is just that, they had to restore things to normality.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 Apr 2009 /  #8
Since when the language we use determinates our nationality, Sasha ?

Why in the world are you talking about nationality now? You said "literature". How can he be the pride of Ukrainian literature while not having a line in Ukrainian in his most famous stories?! So it's you who're trying to lump us together.

Yet if you want to talk about nationality then it's a personal question rather than ethnical.

(you will call them Baderovtsi or Mazepintsi LOL)

Not necessarily. But... should I really prove the contrary?!

Simple your elite has problems with accepting Polish support for Ukraine in NATO and EU.

Yes and I don't think it's baseless but I prefer not to make a tragedy out of that. Afterall same goes for your elite.

Taras Bulba hardly makes a monument to the Polish-Ukrainian brotherhood.

So ist das Leben. Polish-Russian history full of unpleasant moments as well but it's never late to get relationships better.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Apr 2009 /  #9
They were dependent on Russia.

So ist das Leben. Polish-Russian history full of unpleasant moments as well but it's never late to get relationships better.

Its physically impossible with current Russian outlook on how the Europe should look.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Apr 2009 /  #10
Russia acted like the police on that occasion (in a good way), how can the international community complain when the Allies (NATO) have been doing it for countless years?
OP Borrka 37 | 594  
10 Apr 2009 /  #11
How can he be the pride of Ukrainian literature while not having a line in Ukrainian in his most famous stories?

Russian is being used (according to different sources) by 30 -50% of Ukrainians as their native tongue.
Are you trying to say all their contribution to the science, literature, politics are Russian achievements ?!

It's like suggestion there is no Irish literatur because Joyce or Yeats weren't using Gaelic LOL.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Apr 2009 /  #12
Absolutely. If I am a Colombian and write a book about mountains in Chile in my native language, am I Spanish or Colombian? When someone is born in a country and writes about it - there should be no doubt of the part of literature contribution that person makes to. Gogol was born in Sorochinci, Ukraine and he wrote extensively about Ukraine, its people, culture and traditions. It is like to say that Copernicus was Roman for writing in Latin.

Sokrates

I like your "only 2 lost battles with Cossacks". You are hilarious. I think Communist propaganda would pay you loads of money if you became a historian :)

nation were invented by Polish imperialism."

disagree, Ukrainians are Polish property.

You are correct, Borka, in saying that retards will never get cured by traditional medecine.
They have no respect to themselves, they are not sure of themselves. I think that Russians have "complex of provinciality". They think that they live on the outskirts of nowhere and this is why they are constantly trying to depress the situation around them. I don't think so, but I am not Russian. Hope Sasha can explain that phenomenon. The other dude is a Polish kid , so I don't even comment.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
10 Apr 2009 /  #13
It is like to say that Copernicus was Roman for writing in Latin.

Well, he wrote in German too...:)
freebird 3 | 532  
10 Apr 2009 /  #14
I guess Germans and Poles will never agree as far as Copernicus :-)



Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 Apr 2009 /  #15
Are you trying to say all their contribution to the science, literature, politics are Russian achievements ?!

Huh... Boria... Achievements of the country on the whole consist of the achievements of its citizens regardless of their nation. I created the thread famous Russian Poles in order to show contribution of ethnic Poles to what Russia is nowadays. You can't deny it is afterall Russian achievement; and I don't deny that Russians are mishmash of Baltic-Asian-Scandinavic-Slavic-Finno-Ugric kins.

Hope Sasha can explain that phenomenon

Easily. You actually already did.

retards will never get cured by traditional medecine.

This "phenomenon" arose in your mind whereas the reality is somewhat different.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
10 Apr 2009 /  #16
I guess Germans and Poles will never agree as far as Copernicus :-)

Yeah...there were even battles fought on PF about the poor guy...:):):)
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Apr 2009 /  #17
Well, he wrote in German too...:)

I write in English, am I English? Well, it is a debate about who will have more heroes. At the end of the day we all gonna die and wild dogs with rabies will be pissing on our graves.

This "phenomenon" arose in your mind whereas the reality is somewhat different.

How? Is it called "inferiority syndrome" or "outskirts disease" in reality?
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 Apr 2009 /  #18
How?

I don't know Nat. The story of your tough childhood which leaded you to what you currently are is still to be said... and you know it better. Please narrate.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Apr 2009 /  #19
I don't know Nat.

I know, it is a deep psychological factor and profound knowledge of psychiatric treatments is necessary.
Sasha, it is useless, you defend your country's policy no matter how unfair it is to others and I can understand that and on my part, I am not interested in mixing words as I did a second ago. I just want you to understand that I am for normal lives of all. Please, as a citizen of a country you love, be patriotic within your country's boundaries as I am and the world we live in will be beautiful.
freebird 3 | 532  
10 Apr 2009 /  #20
I write in English, am I English? Well, it is a debate about who will have more heroes. At the end of the day we all gonna die and wild dogs with rabies will be pissing on our graves.

well, the times have changed, nowadays people learn foreign languages, few hundred years ago it wasn't that easy. As far as your second sentence, I fully agree with you.........
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 Apr 2009 /  #21
you defend your country's policy no matter how unfair it is

I've never said the policy of my government is fair, moreover I've never defended the policy of my country. The only thing that freak me out is when people want to paint their countries as goody-goody monsterizing Russia in parallel. This is really unfair.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Apr 2009 /  #22
The only thing that freak me out is when people want to paint their countries as goody-goody monsterizing Russia in parallel.

Me too.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
10 Apr 2009 /  #23
Sasha:
The only thing that freak me out is when people want to paint their countries as goody-goody monsterizing Russia in parallel.

Me too.

Really...
In another post you said:

Sokrates:
Russia is the single greatest threat to civilization and European order

Thank you, Sokrates, for ability to see that....

I think it's postings like that Sasha objects to...understandable..
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Apr 2009 /  #24
I think it's postings like that Sasha objects to...understandable..

Whats understandable? Russia is an inherently unstable and abusive country which coupled with its civilization backwardness, closet fascism and international policies make it a threat to European safety and stability, unless you can somehow refute those claims as i can support them i suggest you refrain from calling that understandable.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Apr 2009 /  #25
Drafting in an American-style democracy would bring true instability. Their regime is not inherently unstable, it has gone with what it has known for some time and is by no means teetering on the brink of dissipation.

What is this threat you speak of? I, for one, feel safe living next to Russia.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Apr 2009 /  #26
Their regime is not inherently unstable,

Their regime is based on a group of individuals who are financed by exported natural resources, this leads to virtually non-existent free administration, everything is a straight up-down ladder with no elasticity, a system like that cannot survive any sort of a major upheavel (remember what happened to Tsarist Russia?)

What is this threat you speak of? I, for one, feel safe living next to Russia.

Economic embargo, outright war, nuclear threat during crisis, impressing their own policies upon us.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Apr 2009 /  #27
It's stable within the confines under which it operates. Putin has tightened the ship and is aware of the incohesive elements. Awareness is half of the battle.

Embargos, only Russia imposes them? Look at UN sanctions. Outright war, with who? Afghanistan was 30 years ago for them. Chechnya maybe.

Nuclear threat, aimed at who? If you believe Poland then you are a sucker for rhetoric.

Impressing policies? Eh, Poland is in the EU and makes its own domestic laws too. Nobody forces Poland to buy oil from GASPROM. What policies do you mean?
freebird 3 | 532  
11 Apr 2009 /  #28
This is really unfair.

True, I feel the same way when it comes to my country.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
11 Apr 2009 /  #29
Their regime is based on a group of individuals who are financed by exported natural resources, this leads to virtually non-existent free administration, everything is a straight up-down ladder with no elasticity, a system like that cannot survive any sort of a major upheavel (remember what happened to Tsarist Russia?)

But they are Russians...and they are widely popular you said.
How can such a country full with such nice, popular people so bad??? I'm puzzled....:)

Putin has very high approval rates with the Russians or so I've heard....
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Apr 2009 /  #30
Nathan:
Sasha:
The only thing that freak me out is when people want to paint their countries as goody-goody monsterizing Russia in parallel.

Me too.
Really...
In another post you said:

Nathan:
Sokrates:
Russia is the single greatest threat to civilization and European order

Thank you, Sokrates, for ability to see that....
I think it's postings like that Sasha objects to...understandable..

Bratwurst Boy
Member
Threads: 2
Posts: 5061
Joined: Apr 2, 07

Russia as it is right now is a huge threat. Democracy is non-existant, but this is only half of the problem. Its foreign policy is as outrageous as US'.

Btw, BB, I am not painting my country goody-goody and monsterize Russia. I want it to be a country with which a normal political relations are possible. But as it is right now, it is dangerous. And be silent to that is not care about the future. I do and I speak out. More on that read my post #19.

Afghanistan was 30 years ago for them. Chechnya maybe.

19 years to be correct. What about Georgia?

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