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Poland Betrayed in WW2


boru 2 | 5  
7 Mar 2008 /  #151
Returning to a sensible subject most would concede that the service men and women in the exile armies and the AK felt a sense of betrayal. Most are dead now. Many of the second generation were brought up with that sense of betrayal or an abandonment of the old country in favour of forgetfulness.

Rather than loved WIKI quick bites might I suggest before making silly comments the works of Norman Davies on Poland are read as well as The Poles in Britain 1940 - 2000 or The Abandoned Legion or Forgotten Holocaust or Forgotten Odyssey and others.

Serious subjects require serious perspectives.
Should we lighten up and join the ever repeating young generations who happy clap every alternative liberating view that happens along that decries the past.

Young Poles love the EU let us sing the united chorus and hug some consumer goods, middle aged Poles pray for the sainthood of a past Polish Pope or just avoid looking back at how the Party faithful got their hands on wealth, the old are just forgotten in the rush to the trough.

History however it is interpreted is just darned inconvenient. Sure Roosevelt played a game and for America as he saw it. The Poles lost - thats it. They lost the war. If they are not careful and forget who they are and where they have come from they will lose again in the economic quagmire known as the European Union and remember any friend of the US aint popular with the EU.
tornado2007 11 | 2270  
7 Mar 2008 /  #152
'Poland Betrayed in WW2'

just the sort of thing i hate to see on PF, this is a forum to promote and talk about Poland, yes, however all this we had this we were that they did this to us, come on lets move on and talk about a new poland a more positive poland that is full of fine educated people who are going to take your nation forward instead of living in the dank dreary past.

I've heard so many times, we suffered, people did this to poland and so on and so on and so on, The polish have a lot to be positive about from where i'm standing why do you need to keep rolling back the years to times of misery and bad memories, its almost like you enjoy doing it.
Ozi Dan 26 | 566  
7 Mar 2008 /  #153
its almost like you enjoy doing it.

It's not about enjoyment at all. From my perspective (Polish father lived through WW2 and fled PL thereafter) it's in some ways therapeutic to talk about these issues with people who share similar circumstances. There's no right or wrong answer - it just lightens the load by discussing it. I hope that gives you an insight on why these topics keep coming up
tornado2007 11 | 2270  
7 Mar 2008 /  #154
it just lightens the load by discussing it. I hope that gives you an insight on why these topics keep coming up

thanks for your very mature and well thought out response, of course i understand after your little insight why these topics keep popping up. I also hope you understand what i'm talking about, there is generation of Poles now who do not have to live with this hanging over their heads, yes its in their history but thats it. This most recent generation are the future of your country and these are the ones that should be concentrated on.
celinski 31 | 1258  
7 Mar 2008 /  #155
The polish have a lot to be positive about from where i'm standing why do you need to keep rolling back the years to times of misery and bad memories, its almost like you enjoy doing it.

This most recent generation are the future of your country and these are the ones that should be concentrated on.

The ones that were brought up under a "Communist lie" and told they could not speak. Do you understand Polands people lost the country they also loved and there next gen was born in another country due to this loss. Maybe when the lie's are corrected in history we will be able to let go, until then I from the USA was denied being a part of this most recent generation. Or are our feeling not to matter.

You also have a choice, this is not the only post, you can just pass it by rather than try to silence the very people that are now free to speak.
Feliks - | 13  
7 Mar 2008 /  #156
Most of my grievances are only inherited, but I still have a few. The hesitation of certain powers to get involved is something that in my mind I can easily forgive. No one thinks lightly of entering a war. The part of it that I find harder to forgive was the how Poland was not allowed a representative in the talks to redraw it's borders at the end of the war. It was decided by people who had no real Polish interest, and it ended up with the loss of Lwów, and a resettling of people from what was Eastern Poland for so much of history, to what is now Western Poland, also depriving Poland of it's borders with friendly Hungary and Romania. To be fair to the British, Churchill wanted to carry on from Berlin against Stalin, to properly liberate East Germany and Poland, but couldn't get the support he would need.

I sometimes think that it would be good if Poland were to get back Lwów and the stretch of the Karpaty that it lost, but in the end, it wouldn't be fair to the Ukrainians there today.

Those accountable for the mistakes of the past are long gone, with the past, and it isn't right to blame countries today for those mistakes, although sometimes it is difficult not to. Nasty remarks about Russians keep slipping out of my mouth, but I know that I am wrong to say such things, because the Russians of today are not the Russians who chewed up Poland.

One thing that annoys me here in Britain is the way the history is taught here implies all sorts of fictions about the role of the Polish in WWII. This leads to the idea held commonly by normal Brits that Poland fell, and mighty Britain personally liberated Poland. Many Brits of my generation don't even seem to realise that Britain too was at real risk of invasion from the Nazis; they think that Britain's involvement in the war was all out of charity. Then there is the injustice in the way the holocaust is reported and documented here in Britain. You here of the terrible persecution of the Jews but never anything about ethnic poles also in the concentration camps. I think my main point here is that it is not reported in Britain, just how much Poland sufferred during the war. Nobody has said it, but it feels like it is beeing implied that the Poles lost a nice fair game of chess against Hitler, and then everything was fine for them.

I just wish something could be done about the ignorance.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
7 Mar 2008 /  #157
Feliks nicely put, the entire post
ukpolska  
8 Mar 2008 /  #158
Yes but the obvious thing here is that he is experiencing this in the eyes of British, living in Brighton as he is, which will be a different story told in French, German, American and so on.

Do you want all schools in the world to learn history by the Polish curriculum?
Which I may add is very tainted in its Polishness the same way as other countries are.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
8 Mar 2008 /  #159
Do you want all schools in the world to learn history by the Polish curriculum?

No not necessarily but let's be honest here, Poland's contributions have been underestimated in many textbooks from other countries.

Which I may add is very tainted in its Polishness the same way as other countries are.

We should remove all exaggerations no matter in what textbook be it Polish, English, American, French or what have you. Out of curiosity can you be more specific about Polish exaggerations in their textbooks...... None seem to come to mind.
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
8 Mar 2008 /  #160
For my part, I'm a member of the Polish American Congress in Southern California. Our goals are meagre at best, we don't have a lot of political clout but one of our main objectives, which is the committee I'm on, is to have Polish history taught a little better in American schoolbooks. Polish history is nearly ignored in American schools. Our objective is NOT to supersede American history or British History or French History (all of which are understandably more relevant to American history) but to add a little more about Poland than "On September 1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland and conquered it in two weeks." The End. I took a AP course (AP, in case you don't know means Advanced Placement, in American high schools it is the equivalent of a college course) in European History from 1200-Present and Poland was scarcely mentioned with zero, I repeat ZERO mention of the partitions. This is irresponsible.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
8 Mar 2008 /  #161
For my part, I'm a member of the Polish American Congress in Southern California.

First, I like to say that I have been reading your posts for the past couple weeks and it's an honor we have a person like you that represents the Polish people.

Our goals are meagre at best, we don't have a lot of political clout but one of our main objectives,

I am suprised that Poles have been here for such long and with fairly high numbers and we are not able to achieve the political clout as the latino community has (I know there numbers are higher but that is not our only shortfall). We need much better organization and pull all our resources to influence local elections. The latino community has done a fairly good job at this. Poles should vote for a candidate between themselves and then all Poles should come together and vote for that candidate in the local elections. Our strength will be if we all stick together.

Polish history is nearly ignored in American schools.

I can attest to this. I've taken history in collage and experienced the same.
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
8 Mar 2008 /  #162
First of all, thank you, matthias, I've really enjoyed being on the forum. It gives me great joy to keep my finger on the pulse of Polonia abroad as well as in Poland. In reference to you puzzlement of Polish-Americas political insignificance, I think a lot of it has to do with the political turmoil of Poland over the last 200 years when Poles were moving to America in mass numbers. A generation of Poles like the ones in my family who moved here in the 1870's would be completely different from the millions of displaced persons who came here after WWII. Each generation has different political goals and needs, there is no binding tie other than being Polish. Our contributions have been cultural and scientific but because of our inability to get along with each other they have not been political. Also, distance and language barriers which exist for Polish immigrants and not for Latinos or Irish immigrants should be taken into consideration. If anyone has the wonderful book "Gods Playground" by Norman Davies, the chapter in the second Volume entitled "The Polish Emigration" has a section on the disunion of Polish America. It does a better job at explaining than I do.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
8 Mar 2008 /  #163
If anyone has the wonderful book "Gods Playground" by Norman Davies, the chapter in the second Volume entitled "The Polish Emigration" has a section on the disunion of Polish America. It does a better job at explaining than I do.

Thank you for the recommendation, and Ill make sure to keep an eye out for the book next time I'm at borders... Your explanation does make perfect sense and goes a long way to explain these shortfalls.... Some things still puzzle me, but hopefully the book will be able to answer that....
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
8 Mar 2008 /  #164
Well the book is an all around history of Poland (the ABSOLUTE best English language Polish history book. It's author, Norman Davies is the premiere English speaking Polish historian, he has a few books on Poland but "God's Playground" is the comprehensive overview) it's very dry (it's basically a text book, after all) and hard to come by (if your Borders has it, it's probably only the second volume which is 1795-Present, the first volume is Origins-1795 and is very hard to come by) but it is an exhaustive study of the history of Poland and is completely objective (written by an Englishman) it gives credit where it is do and points out myths and faults when they are present. A easier, more pro-Polish history book is "The Polish Way" by Adam Zamoyski. I also enjoyed reading "The Poles" by Steven Stewart, which is an excellent history of the Solidarity Period with historical references dropped in, but good luck finding that one, I'm sure it's out of print. But, if your only question is Polish America, "Gods Playground" only spends a few paragraph's on that subject, I'd much rather just type out the paragraphs here than have you spend 30 bucks for a little illumination.
OP matthias 3 | 429  
8 Mar 2008 /  #165
Thank you for all those recommendations and Ill try my best to see if I can find them at borders and I'll also try to locate them at the library....

I'd much rather just type out the paragraphs here than have you spend 30 bucks for a little illumination.

I'd really much apprecite it if you find the time and are willing to do it...... Whenever you can, please post it here or feel free to PM, whichever works for you..
franciszek - | 4  
9 Mar 2008 /  #166
My Dad was 15 when his home land was stolen from him,stolen by a big man who maked cars. Adolf Hitler could not tollerate human beings so i think he wanted to kill everybody.My dad stopped him from doing this ,i have a picture of my dad and his friend saving a young boy, i think they could be in Italy.It took till the 1960s b4 he was naturalised and treated like he was british to me he was a fighting Pole and dam proud. And some where there is some body saved by dad and his friend with a new family.My dad often said to me "never trust a russian" so i never do. But i know what he meant
tornado2007 11 | 2270  
9 Mar 2008 /  #167
The ones that were brought up under a "Communist lie" and told they could not speak. Do you understand Polands people lost the country they also loved and there next gen was born in another country due to this loss. Maybe when the lie's are corrected in history we will be able to let go, until then I from the USA was denied being a part of this most recent generation. Or are our feeling not to matter.

You also have a choice, this is not the only post, you can just pass it by rather than try to silence the very people that are now free to speak.

your looking back again and again, yes you deserve your country back, hay the last time i knew and looked Poland is in control of Poland at the moment isn't it????? your comments to me about yourself and others are all to do with 'history' which was where i started out 'moving on' which is something i think is important, jesus i lost some eyesight in an accident, yes i was dissapointed upset confused but i moved on and got on with my lot. You don't need to infect the new generation with negative talk, yes the history is important but it should not be paramount and the number 1 issue in their lives.

Most of my grievances are only inherited

exactly so don't pass it on and on and on down the generation ladder, let Poland get on with being Poland instead of what happened to Poland
OP matthias 3 | 429  
9 Mar 2008 /  #168
yes the history is important but it should not be paramount and the number 1 issue in their lives.

Good point..... History is important but it's not everything...... Also I'm sorry about your accident.....

History sometimes repeats itself so we can't completely disregard it... But at the same time history doen't always repeat itself... So we can't live in the past...

We need to find the right balance between History and living in the present..... However with Tusk I think Poland has managed to find that balance....
celinski 31 | 1258  
10 Mar 2008 /  #169
You don't need to infect the new generation with negative talk, yes the history is important but it should not be param

What is it you fear? Give the new generation credit. Or are you referring to Feliks and myself? We are the ones that lost our fathers homeland. You see Poland has victims that have a right to speak. Kind of funny the way "Communism" silenced the people and now the very people our fathers fought to protect think they can silence us.

I remember!

Reading Stalin's Secret Police Files of the Executed

Stalin said to himself: "Who's going to
remember all this riff-raff in ten or twenty years time? No one. Who
remembers the names now of the boyars Ivan the Terrible got rid of?
No one.... The people had to know he was getting rid of all his
enemies. In the end, they all got what they deserved."

voices of fear, agony, anger, resistance, despair and resignation
from people faced with execution. Even their forced silence often
sounds eloquent. These people were condemned to oblivion by Stalin
for whom their lives meant nothing. Ironically, Stalin's attempt to
extinguish their voices was the instrument that has preserved them,
in the depths of their case files. At least hundreds of thousands of
similar files are still waiting to be read in the archives throughout
the former Soviet Union.

hnn.us/articles/47625.html
OP matthias 3 | 429  
10 Mar 2008 /  #170
What is it you fear? Give the new generation credit. Or are you referring to Feliks and myself? We are the ones that lost our fathers homeland. You see Poland has victims that have a right to speak. Kind of funny the way "Communism" silenced the people and now the very people our fathers fought to protect think they can silence us.

You have the god given right to discuss this, especially because your looking for closure.... It's clear your intentions are pure....
TheKruk 3 | 308  
10 Mar 2008 /  #171
I think Polish history should give young Poles hope and pride that their Grandparents or great-Granparents overcame such terrible adversity. It should instill a sense of encouragement that they can change Poland for the better. But alas maybe I'm just a dreamer.
tornado2007 11 | 2270  
10 Mar 2008 /  #172
What is it you fear? Give the new generation credit. Or are you referring to Feliks and myself? We are the ones that lost our fathers homeland. You see Poland has victims that have a right to speak. Kind of funny the way "Communism" silenced the people and now the very people our fathers fought to protect think they can silence us.

mate its not about silencing anybody, its about 'moving on' surely these things can only be talked about so many times before they start to have a negative affect rather than a reflective one.

Stalin said to himself: "Who's going to
remember all this riff-raff in ten or twenty years time? No one. Who
remembers the names now of the boyars Ivan the Terrible got rid of?
No one.... The people had to know he was getting rid of all his
enemies. In the end, they all got what they deserved."

why should it matter what Stalin said, don't talk about it just to prove that commy sun of a you know what wrong.

closure

how are you going to achieve closure if you keep talking about the subject, what has happened has happened, you can't change it, its not like a contempary issue is it??? mulling over the same sad story again and again isn't going to change anything. Believe me i've watched documentary after documentary and read plenty about what happened to Poland and Poles in WW2 some of it was shocking, some of it just stunned me into silence, some of it was over dramatised, some of it gripping in the sense that you couldn't believe what the Germans were doing.

You may feel that justice has not been done, the trials of all the Nazi's were not enough for you fair play. You lost relatives, family, land and god knows what else in the war and wars previous to it. I can't understand your pain because i haven't been there but i have had trails and tribulations throughout my life where i have had to move on so it does not have a negative affect on myself, my family, or my peers.

I think Polish history should give young Poles hope and pride that their Grandparents or great-Granparents overcame such terrible adversity. It should instill a sense of encouragement that they can change Poland for the better. But alas maybe I'm just a dreamer.

yes i agree with that, learning about the history is all well and good and can be used positively, however over stating the importance of 'history' on the 'present' day can have a negative affect also
OP matthias 3 | 429  
10 Mar 2008 /  #173
how are you going to achieve closure if you keep talking about the subject, what has happened has happened, you can't change it, its not like a contempary issue is it???

Normally I would agree with you but if Russia is trying to deny Katyn again they are asking for the wounds to reopen.....

I think Polish history should give young Poles hope and pride that their Grandparents or great-Granparents overcame such terrible adversity. It should instill a sense of encouragement that they can change Poland for the better. But alas maybe I'm just a dreamer.

I also agree with that......
celinski 31 | 1258  
10 Mar 2008 /  #174
how are you going to achieve closure if you keep talking about the subject, what has happened has happened, you can't change it, its not like a contempary issue is it?

Well lets start with the whole truth, I am not taking "Nazi" here, I am referring to "Soviet". This was not as told in history books across the nation, Poland included, a "Jewish Holocaust", this was directed at "Polish". How many victim's were Greek/Roman Catholic? How many were victim's of "Stalin's"? Where did "Stalin" start killing off the "Polish in eastern Poland"?

Enough with the lie's about history. We have a choice here, include the "Polish victims of Stalin" in the "Holocaust" or name the ones silenced by a nation. Millions of people were killed, slaved, exiled from our country. You can't comprehend we have a right to be added. I am not just speaking of "Katyn" I am speaking Poland's military reserve and their families. Poland's hero's that fought on the front line to free Poland in 1920. Then once more when they recieved amnesty they were your "Ander's Army". In the end to be betrayed and loose the country they fought for. Now today when Poland is free you say, why talk about it? Is this how you respect your hero's.
Ozi Dan 26 | 566  
11 Mar 2008 /  #175
mate its not about silencing anybody, its about 'moving on' surely these things can only be talked about so many times before they start to have a negative affect rather than a reflective one.

You're quite right, but the question can also be asked why do non Poles come on this forum and censure those who wish to discuss matters that are intrinsically Polish, albeit historical. If it offends your sensibilities and makes you upset that we're dragging Poland down, then sorry, but you should grow a harder shell. I take your point about the modern generation needing to move on, but do you honestly think that a young, native Pole seeing these posts would seriously feel as though they were being held back in their lives by virtue of the topic being discussed?

Would you clarify what you mean by negative effect?
celinski 31 | 1258  
11 Mar 2008 /  #176
Not to mention if you don't want to talk about the past then don't come into "Poland betrayed in WW2" ya think it may be the past.
TheKruk 3 | 308  
11 Mar 2008 /  #177
Does anyone know of any good books in English about the Polish point of view of living under Stalinist rule?

And these people should be remembered and counted. And honored.
celinski 31 | 1258  
11 Mar 2008 /  #178
I am working on this very issue. I sent you my link and there are alot in the files. Sadly we are Polish victim's and Stalin wrath... they seemed to have forgotten it was Poland that was attacked and Stalin killed more than Hitler. 1939-45 eastern Poland sent to Siberia to die. Katyn massacre 22,000 /25,000 killed on Stalins orders.
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
11 Mar 2008 /  #179
Katyn is just the tip of the iceberg, celinski. Stalin might have killed more Poles than any other man. Just terrible. The Kruk, I've got a list of good books but it's not with me I can get you a pretty good list in a few hours though, they are out there. Off the top of my head, there is a fascinating book called "The Long Walk" by Slavomir Rawicz which is a memoir of a Polish calvary officer who was sent to Siberia during WW2 and how he and some others escaped. It's an absolute great read. It's not an overall history of Poland under Stalinism but it's a little microcosm of the terror. Also, I can't recommend "God's Playground" by Norman Davies highly enough. It's greatest Polish history book in English. The Polish version is used as a textbook in many Polish schools now. It's fair, objective, and accurate. Again, it isn't simply about Stalinism but it goes into that period in detail.
tornado2007 11 | 2270  
11 Mar 2008 /  #180
Well lets start with the whole truth, I am not taking "Nazi" here, I am referring to "Soviet". This was not as told in history books across the nation, Poland included, a "Jewish Holocaust", this was directed at "Polish". How many victim's were Greek/Roman Catholic? How many were victim's of "Stalin's"? Where did "Stalin" start killing off the "Polish in eastern Poland"?

you've just proven my point, your talking history again, i'm not saying this happened or this didn't happen, lol, its nothing to do with what i mean. What happened, happened if you see what i mean, you can't change it and if a few commy SOB's want to deny it then let them because i'm sure everybody else knows it happened and who was responsible for it.

I also understand that Poland and Polish people were the victims sort out by the Nazi's, Soviets etc etc but this goes back to my original point, move on. Poland is not going through that now its a free country with the capabilities to do what it wants when it pleases.

You're quite right, but the question can also be asked why do non Poles come on this forum and censure those who wish to discuss matters that are intrinsically Polish, albeit historical. If it offends your sensibilities and makes you upset that we're dragging Poland down, then sorry, but you should grow a harder shell.

[quote=Ozi Dan wrote]Would you clarify what you mean by negative effect?

well put it this way all the mumble grumble about such subjects must be bigger ten fold in poland than on this forum. I'm a young British person and i don't want to keep hearing about losses here and nazi's there. People dying, land being stripped, yes i would like to learn about it, however i want to hear the good things about my country. It isn't the negative affect as such but it can create a negative mindset, maybe as an example here, the reason that people sometimes feel the Polish are so defensive about anything and untrusting. Well you know what if all i heard my family talking about was this sort of stuff i think i'd be pretty paranoid too.

Finally do i think it should be discussed, yes of course, there is a time and a place to do that. Yes the time and place is on this forum, however just going round and round in circles helps nobody and especially yourselves.

I know i can't tell you all the details of what your talking about and i know i'm not Polish and i know i can't tell you what to do. I'm not doing that, it's just simply my point of view that people should be positive and not negative and by continually talking about 'polish victims' this and 'Poland betrayed' that, negativity seems to be on the mind of most.

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